Neophyte, pretty blown away

[Vark]

Just downloaded the demo, after purchasing a far more capable system, apart from some dodgy graphics (corrugated shadows and the occasional tracer like flicker on the landscape) I'm seriously impressed. Being a sadist I'm playing the UK mission (modern Jock column arrives piecemeal to occupy BUA) on Iron level with turns.

So far so good. My Javelin, sniper and HQ units with attached MFC, have all deployed and are observing the target area, my recce squads are moving 200m ahead of their vehicles, and supporting Scimitars, scouting out my right flank. But I am finding it very difficult to position soldiers so they can take full advantage of the terrain. At the moment I am resorting to using units that can call artillery for a LOS tool, to move to enfilade positions. Surely a Javelin crew, or dedicated sniper team would be able to gauge this quite accurately. I have not met any enemy resistance, apart from two ATGM shots, so cannot use hunt, to work into good firing positions.

Talking of the Sagger? shots, I'm assuming a pretty crappy system because after using replay I found out where the cloud of dust at the base of the enemy ridge came from! Gunner must have driven it into the ground straight after launch! The second missile though passed right over the vehicle and it sat there! Luckily, the turn ended and a pop smoke and reverse order got it to safety, but I'd have thought a recce vehicle with eyes on the firing point would have reacted automatically. The manual says that units can behave autonomously, but it sat there, is this normal?

Anyway, very impressed, and the 1 to1 representation creates amazing tension and an, almost, emotional link with the pixel truppen. Finger crossed, can't wait for my two Challies to arrive and the AS-90's to bombard the Sagger? firing posts.

[Erwin]

Welcome aboard! You can check LOS from every waypoint or unit using the TARGET command (and cancel it after of course).

[Vark]

You are a genius, as I ever I dived into the game and then started refering to the manual! Still, I'd read a lot about the UI and camera controls, the former is pretty self-explanatory the later is a bit clumsy, but I'm pretty good at racing around the battlefield now

Any ideas about the flickering and wonky shadows?

Had an OMG moment as the sun rose, just as my forward recce teams advanced through the popped smoke of a retreating Jackal (this one did react to another Sagger launch?). I was right about the right hand crest it seems, it's where I'd put my support weapons to take any advancing armour in the flank. Guess some SFMG's will be with the ATGW's and if they are Saggers some SPG-9's to compensate for their massive minimum engagement range. Wonder how they will deal with my four man merchants of death with a prep barrage of 155 VT? Shame I can't split the teams though, as I suspect the Minimi and L96 are used to give cover to the L86/L86+UGL team.

Any does and don'ts?

[stikkypixie]

You are a genius, as I ever I dived into the game and then started refering to the manual! Still, I'd read alot about the UI and camera controls, the former is pretty self-explanatory the later is a bit clumsy, but I'm pretty good at racing around.

Any ideas about the flickering and wonky shadows?

Had an OMG moment as the sun rose, just as my forward recce teams advanced through the smoke of a retreating Jackal. Shame I can't split the teams, as I suspect the Minimi and L96 are used to give cover to the L86/L86+UGL team.

The shadows just work better on some graphics cards than others. Not much you can do as far as know, unless you can find some card setting to change it. One tip is to change the hotkeys so that each key corresponds to one command only. I am not a big fan of the whole relative hotkeys thing.

[sburke]

Just downloaded the demo, after purchasing a far more capable system, apart from some dodgy graphics (corrugated shadows and the occasional tracer like flicker on the landscape) I'm seriously impressed. Being a sadist I'm playing the UK mission (modern Jock column arrives piecemeal to occupy BUA) on Iron level with turns.

So far so good. My Javelin, sniper and HQ units with attached MFC, have all deployed and are observing the target area, my recce squads are moving 200m ahead of their vehicles, and supporting Scimitars, scouting out my right flank. But I am finding it very difficult to position soldiers so they can take full advantage of the terrain. At the moment I am resorting to using units that can call artillery for a LOS tool, to move to enfilade positions. Surely a Javelin crew, or dedicated sniper team would be able to gauge this quite accurately. I have not met any enemy resistance, apart from two ATGM shots, so cannot use hunt, to work into good firing positions.

Talking of the Sagger? shots, I'm assuming a pretty crappy system because after using replay I found out where the cloud of dust at the base of the enemy ridge came from! Gunner must have driven it into the ground straight after launch! The second missile though passed right over the vehicle and it sat there! Luckily, the turn ended and a pop smoke and reverse order got it to safety, but I'd have thought a recce vehicle with eyes on the firing point would have reacted automatically. The manual says that units can behave autonomously, but it sat there, is this normal?

Anyway, very impressed, and the 1 to1 representation creates amazing tension and an, almost, emotional link with the pixel truppen. Finger crossed, can't wait for my two Challies to arrive and the AS-90's to bombard the Sagger? firing posts.

It gets better, some time next year we should see another modern game using the version 2 engine. Much as I like CMSF, I can't wait to see it with the updates. Even though CMSF won't be updated I'd still buy it again just for everything that comes with it. Suggest downloading the Ramadi scenario from LLF

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1029

and Task Force Panther from Normal Dude.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=304

Just two of many

As to your unit not reacting, it is possible that specific unit did not ID how close that second round was and therefore wouldn't react.

[Vark]

Definite Sagger, I paused the replay and there it was, in all its stubby finned glory! Argh first casualty, the gunner on my Scimitar! My recce are engaging an SPG-9 and a SFMG now! My HQ must have packed a crystal ball!

Thanks for the advice, will look out for the updates.

[c3k]

Shadows in-game are uglier on AMD cards than they are on Nvidia cards. (I am not a fanboy of either manufacturer. I have owned many from both and will continue to buy from whichever provides better value to me.)

Welcome to the addiction.

Ken

[Erwin]

We're assuming you have CMSF patched to the latest version(?) Makes a huge difference.

[Vark]

Erwin, this is just the demo, wanted to stick my toe in the water before diving in. Water is warm and lovely, but work demands more and more time, so an addiction is not really needed though. The demo gives me what I need for now, love the flexibility you have in pausing at waypoints and being able to perform multiple actions. Watching my recce squads duel the SPG-9 and SFMG, whilst a platoon raced to support was pretty awesome.

Scimitars are pretty flimsy though and the Jackals inclusion in the scenario seems just so that the Syrians can casue Blue force casualties. In reality, they roam far ahead, not take part in an assault on a BUA.

[Vark]

Ok, the thrill of the newness is dissipating and some questions are popping up

a) Why can a four man team not use assault? I thought standard British/NATO tactics were that a four man team could use skirmish tactics (two move, two cover, then repeat)

Can Sagger overwatch be set up, one of my Scimitars took a missile hit, but at launch 7 vehicles all had eyes on the launch site. As the missile drifted across not one weapon system engaged.

c) Fired two Javelins at an occupied building, both nose dived after 200m. Fired again, both hit! Wonder what is going on?

d)Why do Scimitars carry so much APDS and so little HE?

e) The Recce vehicles should have thermal imaging, but they spot as well as the infantry who do not. Is that an accurate statement, or does perception differ from reality?

[stikkypixie]

Ok, the thrill of the newness is dissipating and some questions are popping up

a) Why can a four man team not use assault? I thought standard British/NATO tactics were that a four man team could use skirmish tactics (two move, two cover, then repeat)

Can Sagger overwatch be set up, one of my Scimitars took a missile hit, but at launch 7 vehicles all had eyes on the launch site. As the missile drifted across not one weapon system engaged.

c) Fired two Javelins at an occupied building, both nose dived after 200m. Fired again, both hit! Wonder what is going on?

d)Why do Scimitars carry so much APDS and so little HE?

e) The Recce vehicles should have thermal imaging, but they spot as well as the infantry who do not. Is that an accurate statement, or does perception differ from reality?

a) Assault in the game only works if you have enough men/fire-teams. It does not work for a single fire-team.

Having eyes on the launch site does not equal actually spotting (unless this is what you mean). Your vehicles must have missed it. You can check who can see what by clicking the individual vehicles/squads. This will give you their view of the world.

c) No idea what you are saying here

d) If I recall correctly, the whole premise of the game is this that it's a conventional conflict and the AP/HE ratio reflects this.

e) 1. There is no more spotting as in CMx1, where once a unit is spotted, everyone sees it. This (at least to me in the beginning) affects my expectation of the whole spotting business. 2. Spotting is also a chance thing affected by the number of observers. A 13 squad team for example might have better spotting capabilities as whole, than one recon vehicle depending on the conditions because they simply have more eyes watching. The difference in equipment can be subtle, and only become really noticeable in "extreme" conditions. I made a small test to show this:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1217524&postcount=28

[dpabrams]

Ok, the thrill of the newness is dissipating and some questions are popping up

a) Why can a four man team not use assault? I thought standard British/NATO tactics were that a four man team could use skirmish tactics (two move, two cover, then repeat)?

Split squads don't have the option of assault. A squad must have at least two sections intact to use the assault command. If your squad is split into 2-3 sections, you can maually do bounding overwatch with quick moves and pauses.

Can Sagger overwatch be set up, one of my Scimitars took a missile hit, but at launch 7 vehicles all had eyes on the launch site. As the missile drifted across not one weapon system engaged.)?

Can't say for your example why there was no suppressive fire. Best way to fight the Sagger is to get <500 meters from the launcher, which renders a Sagger worthless. The trick is to fight in that 250 to 500 meter zone, far enough from RPG's to make hits low percentage and close enough to render Saggers ineffective.

c) Fired two Javelins at an occupied building, both nose dived after 200m. Fired again, both hit! Wonder what is going on?

Javelin's are not perfect, they do miss.

d)Why do Scimitars carry so much APDS and so little HE?

It's just the game loadout and you can do nothing about it.

[Vark]

My point about thermals is that they give an observer an excellent chance of detecting infantry, especially in built up areas. The Scimitars should have been able to spot the heat plume from the Sagger and reacted accordingly, instead they watched it float across and nail their comrade. Interestingly, research from the 73 war showed that any obstacle encountered by a HEAT warhead (towing hook, headlamp etc) had a quite drastic effect on the penetration. These Scimitars have bar armour, but it seems to have little effect. I'll just put the lack of response down to a communication snafu and hope tactics trump game oddities.

Well aware of the Saggers vulnerability, but the nasty AI has SPG-9's for full coverage. Correction, they did have, the 155 VT arrived and goodby pesky missiles and vaned nasties! Talking of ATGM's, two Javelin failures in 5 seconds, some contractor skimming the cream I expect!

Love the aquire order, it really adds a new dynamic, as units race back, in shuttle relays, to restock on grenades and LAW's. You could play a one hour CM1 game, but for half that time the infantry were pretty harmless after burning up their ammo, especially true of support weapons, not now.

How good is the AI? I seem to have outfoxed it by not attacking through its carefully constructed kill sack, but am taking it apart with a flanking move. Will it have the gumption to reorientate, or is it scripted when certain conditions occur. I only ask, because the T-72's that have arrived as reinforcements are sitting flank on to me, even though it's pretty obvious what I'm doing (just follow the path of dust and smoke from my artillery and mortars and the rumble and rooster tails from my armour)

Only got 43 minutes to take all the objectives, so it's time to press on with the pixel chappies and their virtual Challies and Panzers!

[Paper Tiger]

I have never played the Demo scenario but it sounds like you might be playing with Allies troops with low experience and equipment settings. That would explain why two of your javelins nose-dived and the next two hit as well as accounting for the lack of response you're seeing from your Scimitars in overwatch. If you have well trained troops sitting in well-equipped vehicles, the Sagger ambush is harder to pull off.

[Vark]

Oh, can I change the settings? The info says they are veterans, but their performance is pretty woeful, thinking about it. The snipers are a joke, 450m shot at a half exposed RPG gunner, four misses, a Challenger that must have a cramped turret, I assume cramped as they have three crew, plus the gunners seeing eye dog!

Still, the AI seems paralysed by my pretty obvious axis of attack and that means an opportunity to dislocate and destroy.

[Paper Tiger]

The info says they are veterans

Do you mean the briefing or the game interface? Some folks feel that the higher experience levels are too overpowered and will use Green troops in place of Regular or Veteran troops in a mission for better game-play. I don't know if that's what's happening in this mission because I've never played it.

Still, the AI seems paralysed by my pretty obvious axis of attack and that means an opportunity to dislocate and destroy.

The AI is completely unreactive. It will not do anything to counter your moves unless the scenario designer has perfectly anticipated them and scripted the AI to do so. That's why some of us are hankering after AI scripting.

[Vark]

Strange, I'd have thought, that confronted by a map, with a BUA surrounded by an open expanse and flanked by a ridge, that runs from your start line to beyond two crucial road junctions, most CM players would have taken my approach. I was waiting for an AI response to my obvious axis of attack, but now, watching the AI reinforce the area by passed, and T-72's sitting exposed, (in full defilade for the front facing arc, painfully exposed to the flanks), I'm having my doubts.

I have 37 minutes left and two 155 m batteries and a mortar platoon with 5/6ths ammo available, and my Armour and Mech infantry well on the way to destroying the entire right flank. Shame, thought Iron level would prove a challenge, still four? more scenarios to get my teeth in, and perhaps Shockforce with all modules as a Christmas present?

[akd]

Strange, I'd have thought, that confronted by a map, with a BUA surrounded by an open expanse and flanked by a ridge, that runs from your start line to beyond two crucial road junctions, most CM players would have taken my approach. I was waiting for an AI response to my obvious axis of attack, but now, watching the AI reinforce the area by passed, and T-72's sitting exposed, (in full defilade for the front facing arc, painfully exposed to the flanks), I'm having my doubts.

Scenarios can have multiple AI plans, randomly selected at scenario initiation with an option for weighting. Not sure if this scenario has multiple AI plans, but it is possible if you played it again you might see different deployments/actions on behalf of the AI.

In general, however, I don't think BFC includes particularly difficult scenarios for standalone demo scenarios. The assumption is that a demo player is more likely to be somewhat new to CM. A scenario where a good plan will win easily but a poor plan will present challenge but still allow for the possibility of winning despite initial mistakes is probably considered ideal.

There is also the issue that a standalone scenario must both present a challenge to the single player but also allow for reasonably balanced head-to-head play. This is a very difficult goal to accomplish. (We hope someday there will be an option for AI-only force augmentation).

The full game has many more challenges for the single player, both in QBs where you can set your own force balance and in campaigns where there are more possibilities for enhancing challenge and tailoring difficulty based on past performance. In campaigns:

1. losses can be carried forward, compounding minor mistakes that still allow victory in a single scenario

2. scenarios need not maintain any force balance for head-to-head play

3. campaign scripting can increase difficulty of future scenarios based on past performance, leading to a ramping up of difficulty

I have 37 minutes left and two 155 m batteries and a mortar platoon with 5/6ths ammo available, and my Armour and Mech infantry well on the way to destroying the entire right flank. Shame, thought Iron level would prove a challenge, still four? more scenarios to get my teeth in, and perhaps Shockforce with all modules as a Christmas present?

Difficulty level has no effect on the AI performance. It primarily affects the responsiveness of support (e.g. delay times for artillery, but beware as it affects AI and player equally) and the amount of information provided to the player (fog of war).

[Vark]

Interesting,so playing Iron level hampers the Syrians more, as their C3 is pretty dire, compared to the Western forces. I'm having some difficulty with the Scimitars, anything but a blunt spoon, thrown at a distance, seems to cause them problems, what are they useful for? Ditto the Jackals.

[Paper Tiger]

Scimitars and Jackals shouldn't be facing off with Syrian mechanised or armoured forces all that frequently. Sometimes, demo missions just show off the new kit. I really LOVE the Jackals. They really come into their own in Infantry-centric missions on large maps as do the Scimitars.

[Erwin]

Yes, the variety of Brit soft vehicles are fun. I highly recommend ROYAL MUD MARINES as a full game scenario that is full of them.

[Paper Tiger]

If I ever, (which means 'probably never') get the time to do this, I would like to rework the Tall Tamir missions of the Canadian campaign to use Brit Light Infantry as the core units. I was using these forces as stand-ins while waiting for the Canadians to arrive and I had a great time using them. When the Canadians finally did arrive, it was a Mechanised Task Force and so the missions all played out very, very differently.

[Mord]

You want a real challenge, play a human. Me and Rambler have had a slow PBEM going for over a month now, (German Mech Vs Syrian Mech) and it has been one hellacious slugfest. I'll be lucky to pull a draw out of it and I am playing the Germs. He's made me pay for every inch of ground...sometimes twice!

Mord.

[Vark]

God forbid that my Scimitars tangle with actual armour! I had two beat a hasty retreat when under 12.7mm fire, both popped smoke, 'licked their wounds, and waited for the PBI to deal with the threat (the Brit Recce with a sniper rifle in each 4 man team are great for anti heavy weapons duty). I was not impressed with three Scimitars pouring on MG fire and it having little effect, whilst one SAW can keep them huddling!

I also was most vexed at my Enhanced Challenger II's flanking a T-72, which although buttoned, spotted the turret down threat, and immediately turned, whilst traversing its turret. The Chally shot first, gaining an expected first round hit, but the T-72 also fired, knocking out critical optics on the Chally, before being toasted by the follow up shot.

Before tangling with human opponents I'm perfecting my use of waypoints. Loaded up a game just to experiment with all the combos available. Debuss, run, throw smoke, pause hunt, pause run slow and face. I love the flexibility, especially the pause function at each waypoint.

Final point, I read alot about the clumsy UI, I'm floating around easily, zooming and panning, though a dropdown menu, if you highlighted a unit might be nice. I am though having a bit of trouble with the C2 advantages, most of my units are fully networked with PIR's and Bowman's but struggle to pass on simple contact reports. Case in point, a recce team, with attendant HQ, fail to aquire an SPG-9 that has fired on the lead team, which does have eyes on. The Target line shows all units have good LOS to the target, two minutes later, after the SPG-9 has fired again the trail team leapfrogs forward and still fails to see the threat. Eventually a Challenger decides to play and goodbye SPG-9! Perhaps though, as has been suggested my units have been nerfed for the demo.

Now, work gets in the way of planning my final assault. I think I'll just charge in and see what chaos ensues!