Partial Penetration, Penetration.. Then what?

[Karabekian]

Inspired by some other threads of independent tanks and the Panzerfaust discussion, I would like to know something that puzzles me.

Now in CMBN I sometimes get into a situation when I go crazy at those weak, cowardly pixelsoldaten that seem to jump out of their tanks anytime they like, despite what I think is minor damage. They will not even fire off that last round or they drive blindly into death in a panic. Once out of the tank, the bastards run away!

But in reality, what would it be like to sit in a tank that is hit? Like inside a church bell? Nothing?

If no penetration, how much would the crew feel it? Partial penetration, stuff fly around, full penetration everything flies around? :confused:

Below I posted the end of everything, but my question really is what the view feels when the tank is hit in a way that does not kill or badly injure them directly.

Makes me feel bad for even my pixelmen.

GRAPHIC WARNING------------------------------------------------------

(No blood or gore - but still a brutal brewing up of a T-72 tank (with crew).

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[c3k]

Hmm, funny how my heuristic porn block jumped onto this...

It would depend on the crew, the tank, and the shell. Some guys say they saw the armor glow red. Others blacked out, came to with smoke and a mess, so they bailed...only to find the tank was good and there was no penetration.

Regardless, if your tank is getting hit, you're not in a good spot. It'd be the rare crew who would stay and fight, in or out of the tank, if they were getting pounded in a set location.

[ArgusEye]

This is one of those things that memoirs are great for. Their descriptions of events like the tank getting destroyed are usually quite vivid.

[Peregrine]

I have read an account that stated armoured shot had a clearly defined sound if it passed close to their tank (I think this was from a tank commander so no idea what the guys inside might hear). If the tank was in any sort of open area (ie not immediately able to move into cover) this would result in bailing. If the tank wasn't hit they shortly after they would jump back in and continue.

Your pixeltroops are foolhardy brave little souls when under fire. It was awhile ago there are some pretty funny videos of CM tanks taking heaps of hits and continuing on about.

[ASL Veteran]

After inspecting our target, discussing possible danger spots and driving tactics, we mounted and informed Arno, our gunner, Karl, our loader, and Egon, the radio operator. Their first combat action was now before them. Ready to go, ready to fire. ‘Panzer March!” Our nerves tight to the breaking point, each alone with his thoughts, complete silence inside the vehicle, only the engine was humming. So we crawled and crept slowly toward the hill top. What was waiting for us on the rear slope? Otto was standing in his hatch. ‘Slowly, a little higher! Stop! Turret three o’clock, aim at the edge of the woods! Again, nothing, Helmut, let’s go, march!” I geared up and opened the throttle all the way. We crested the hilltop. I spotted the edge of the woods and steered toward its left corner. We wanted to go around it so we could see what was behind it.

Then, a violent rattle on the outer walls, machine gun and rifle fire. Our turret MG was firing. I recognized a rapidly firing enemy machine gun, spotted the flat helmets. De clutching on the right, aiming the hull MG, firing – all that happened in a flash. There, at the corner of the woods, enemy soldiers moving a gun into position! Report to the turret again aiming the hull MG. Our gun was firing with the Panzer moving at full speed. ‘Stop! Stop! Back! Back! Faster!’ Otto shouted that order. I knew the engine was at full speed, it could not go backward any faster. I turned toward the instruments, we were way past the maximum allowable number of revolutions, the time was sixteen minutes before sixteen hours. Just as I was about to look out of my sight slit I was blinded by a flash of light. There was a bang as if a soda pop bottle had smashed into a stone floor. Hit to the forehead, alive, those were my thoughts. Then, the Panzer was shaking as if in the grip of a giant fist, brightness, howling, shrieking noises, totally inhuman. Smell of sulfur, complete silence.

Then Otto’s voice: “Bail out, Panzer’s on fire!” I unlatched my hatch, pushed it open, it moved only a few centimeters. Flames immediately blazed through the opening. The turret skirt sat above. I saw how Egon, our radio operator, pulled his legs from his hatch. That was the way. Across the transmission, the radio, my breath stopped, it was getting so hot, I had to get out, I could not take it anymore. Far away, a face. Arms stretching toward me. Shouts: “Helmut, get out!” Pulling, ripping, fresh air. I was outside, jumped off, letting myself drop. Egon had come back and pulled me out. Thanks comrade! Egon helped me to get up, I was standing again. Bullets whistled by and hit the hull. We lept to the side away from the enemy, there was Otto. What about Arno and Karl? Otto pointed to the turret, its side hatches were still closed and yelled: “Both were killed outright, I was still inside!” I could not believe it. Arno Eltus from Konigsberg in East Prussia, my gunner. Since Hasselt we had been together with Otto, always in the same Panzer. We lived through our first actions, victories, always the three of us together. Now he was gone, just left inside the turret. What a terrible realization.

Dark smoke billowed from the open hatches. We ran into the direction of our front line. Suddenly I heard: “Helmut, you’re on fire!” I rolled on the ground, Otto and Egon helped extinguish the flames. Again, machine gun bullets were whistling by us. We ran and ran. Finally we reached the rear slope, found German soldiers, houses. A squad of soldiers addressed us but I did not hear or comprehend anything. I could see but not recognize , felt pain, severely burning pain. Then it turned all black around me and silent.

[Hister]

Terrible stuff.

[Wildhack]

I've read that non-penetrating hits can frequently cause fragments of a tanks interior surfaces to shatter, ricochet, and cause serious wounds. I believe it's called "spalling"?

[winkelried]

I've read that non-penetrating hits can frequently cause fragments of a tanks interior surfaces to shatter, ricochet, and cause serious wounds. I believe it's called "spalling"?

Even during the war there was even an ammunition developed to make use of this effect HESH or High Explosive Squash Head.

[MikeyD]

I *understand* German armor was getting a little funky towards the end of the war due to scarcity of resources among other things. It was too hard, too high carbon content, which made it brittle. So even if there was no penetration a teacup-size shard might break off from the opposite side and go rattling through the fighting compartment. U.S. armor tended to be softer, with obvious disadvantages but also with some less obvious advantages

[PzKpfw 1]

British & US anlayss of the T-34-76 M1942 armor.showed T-34's armor was designed to defeat undermatching projectiles which left it extremely vulnerable to overmatching projectiles from German lang guns, Ie, 7.5 cm L/43,L/48, L/70, 8.8cm L/56, & L/71.

T-34 armor due to its high BHN (400-500+) made the armor very brittle so that it offered no follow up resistance vs repeated impacts in the same area of an penetration, whole pieces of armor would shatter. Their are reports of the T-34-76 drivers hatches being blown off by impacts on the lower glacis etc.

An example from the WAL report on the T-34-76/KV-1 armor reads:

3. The armor componets of the Medium Tank T-34 were heat treated to very high hardness levels (429 - 495 Brinnell) probably in an attempt to obtain maximum resistance to penetration even at the expense of structural stability under ballistic attack. The componets of the Heavy Tank KV-1 were heat treated to hardnesses more nearly approaching American practice (285 - 321 Brinnell).

BHN comparison US armor vs Russian armor, Russian BHN in ( )'s:

5/8" Hard rolled homogeneous - 360-390 (495)

3/4" Rolled homogeneous - 310 - 350 (429)

1-1/4" Rolled homogeneous - 280 - 320 (321)

1-7/8" - 2" Rolled homogeneous - 260 - 290 (444 - 461)

2" - 2-3/8" cast homogeneous - 235 - 270 (444 - 495)

3-5/8" - 4" cast homogeneous - 200 - 230 (285 - 293)

Sherman armor due to its lower BHN held up even under repeated impacts in the same area as an penetration.

Regards, John Waters

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yep. I have read that roughly half of Soviet tank crew casualties were from armor spalling due to its brittleness, which caused a high proportion of eye injuries.

[Mord]

Partial Penetration, Penetration.. Then what?

Baby.

Mord.

[Karabekian]

Thanks for the interesting answers, I wonder really how frightened you would be when out of nowhere something throws pieces of your armor around. Tough guys that held together and continued on.

Mord, haha some of us seem to spend too much time with CMBN.