Question on Italian off map artillery

[Childress]

**SPOILER**

Scenario: Lemon Hill

The Italian force must seize Lemon Hill, a dominating position on a rather denuded promontory.

The Company HQ quick moves to a two story house off on the right flank accompanied by two Breda ACs. The HQ, 500m from the setup zone, is able to call off map artillery down on the hill (to negligible effect) 850m distant. How is this possible? Neither the HQ nor the Bredas possess radios.

[MikeyD]

The last time this was discussed (long long ago) I believe BFC said they're in a bit of a bind due to their not representing landline communications. So things become a bit abstracted on the topic of higher HQ and communications. You see this sometimes in CMBN too but its less apparent because radios are so much more common.

[Childress]

Thanks, Mikey. I had assumed the Italian off map stuff would have to be consumed on Turn 1. However, my guys got plastered (hmm...) trying to get up the hill in the first attempt. My plan was doubtless defective so, for the reload, I scheduled a meeting with the various and disgruntled commanders. Their advice was insightful (not) hence the experiment.

Also, pls ask Steve to increase the range of the Italian mortars to beyond 450m. 1000m works.

[Frankster65]

The last time this was discussed (long long ago) I believe BFC said they're in a bit of a bind due to their not representing landline communications. So things become a bit abstracted on the topic of higher HQ and communications. You see this sometimes in CMBN too but its less apparent because radios are so much more common.

That would be an interesting implementation for BF and gamewise...landline communications. I wonder if it could be done?

[Childress]

That would be an interesting implementation for BF and gamewise...landline communications. I wonder if it could be done?

Probably not worth it for a minor ally. As a game implementation? Interesting a rather frivolous coding diversion, not to mention the 'ZZZZZZ' factor. Maybe disabling the ability to call in off-map stuff if the (Italian) spotter moves? I suspect, as a non-grog, that landlines were more common on the defending side.

[Broadsword56]

All three powers used landline field telephones extensively in WWII.

I could imagine an abstracted system where, for phone instead of radio-equipped troops, the CM engine traces an imaginary LOC from the unit to the higher unit in the C2 chain. You wouldn't see the wire on map, but it could have some invisible dieroll chance of getting cut by any artillery that hits an AS along its length, or an AFV that drives over it. When it's working you'd see a telephone handset icon in the GUI instead of the radio icon, and the usual green dots.

[John Kettler]

MIkeyD,

I have discussed this matter recently.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105749

Childress,

This is why your argument, in my view, is specious. http://www.worthpoint.(you know what)/worthopedia/ww2-original-german-field-telephone-cable-reel The Italian FO is no more static than any other force was that ran commo wire, and I've already stated (and you can check the Battle of Berlin doc for yourself) that the Russians were unspooling same on the fly as they crossed the Oder in amphibious jeeps. The PBI used devices like the one shown, or more commonly like the chest mount for the DR-8B reel http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.(you know what)/2010/06/praxis-commo-after-big-darkness-field.html

From these, it's clear that the Italian FO was no no means locked in place, unless literally at the end of his commo wire.

Broadsword56,

Good idea, but be sure to model wire repair crews, too. When the field phone abruptly stopped working, people were sent out to trace and fix the problem.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Broadsword56]

MIkeyD,

Broadsword56,

Good idea, but be sure to model wire repair crews, too. When the field phone abruptly stopped working, people were sent out to trace and fix the problem.

Regards,

John Kettler

Yes, but the repair activity would be outside the time scale of a CMBN battle. They wouldn't have been able to go looking for a break and run around with spools under fire and in the heat of battle, would they?

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

Actually, they did! Silver Star action

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Belet

And this is dispositive. See Paragraph 2 in the PDF, as well as the link thereafter.

[PDF]

EXPRESSING SUPPORT FOR THE EFFORTS BY THE

www.marshalltexas.net/uploads/pdf2012/04262012/5a.pdf

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/photoalbum_40.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

Commo wire was laid with lots of slack in it, which helped it survive a pounding and simplified splicing cuts back together. The wire repair team probably wouldn't need the reel for this job. That's for laying and retrieving the commo wire.

Regards,

John Kettler

[black_prince]

Having read 'The Clay Pigeons of St Lo' not too long ago, it struck me that even for radio equipped troops, landlines seemed to be the primary means of communication. The radios often seemed to be inopperable and lines for field telephones were constantly being laid and re-laid in all kinds of circumstances.

[Childress]

I did notice that when the radio-less company commander called in the off-map arty it did include a *very* stiff delay. Over ten minutes, iirc. Perhaps that reflected, in an abstracted manner, the inconvenience of setting up the phone link.

[Broadsword56]

I think if the repair function were implemented for phone lines, it should be abstracted with a randomized chance and a variable time before the link is restored and the icon returns, once a line has been cut (by HE fire, an AFV rolling over it, or occupation of any commo line AS by an enemy unit).

[Childress]

Somehow I doubt Combat Mission:Landline Coms Edition! would rock the sales charts.

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

I agree, but you could also tap into the enemy's wire comms. The U.S. thwarted this by using Comanche and other tribes during WW I. Drove the Germans nuts!

http://www.army.mil/americanindians/soldiershonored/a_codetalkers.html

The Navajo (they prefer Dineh, "the people" over the Spanish for "horse thieves") got all the press, but other tribes labored unsung for a very long time.

http://www.turtletrack.org/Issues00/Co06032000/CO_06032000_Codetalk.htm

Childress,

Tut! Tut! It's a sim, remember? On a more serious note, I think Broadsword56 is on to something, and I say this as someone who had to figure out the entire air defense structure in East Germany during the Cold War, roster it, and plot it on a highly classified overlay. Like it or not, field telephones were absolutely essential to the war effort and, unlike radio, couldn't be jammed and weren't subject to solar disruption, either. Yes, they were subject to outages and both friendly and hostile disruption, but even rudimentary research will reveal all sorts of radio horror stories from World War II.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

There's a great sequence in here showing land lines being used in that "other theater" of war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy8mxh0P63M

Regards,

John Kettler