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Hide and Seek...


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Okay two things acually, one of them being a major issue the other I don't care about hat much.

Can we use Ambush as an area of effect versus a Target? Otherwise I think it is useless because if a unit moves close but not on this target I get no ambush smile.gif.

Now to my major sticking point. Can we PLEASE have unit automatically stop hiding when I order them to fire. More than once I have screwed up a PBEM game because I ordered my hiding units to fire and they didn't because I forgot to unhide them. I think it is common sense that I would want them to stand up and fire versus fire into a wall wink.gif.

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Richard Arnesen

The Wargamer

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Richard,

Ambush IS an area of effect. Units passing within about 10 metres of the ambush marker will be ambushed BUT if you get the enemy axis of advance wrong (which is what I think you're saying you did) then the ambush won't spring until your troops decide to self-preserve. I find this realistic insofar as it happened in war quite a lot.

Hmm I always thought units DID automatically unhide when ordered to fire. All mine certainly seem to.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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Guest Scott Clinton

I think the 'unhide' thing happened to me last night too. I could not figure out why the damn 60mm mortars would not fire...now I think this was it, they never did stand up. Have to check to night...it was late and at the time I didn't really need their help wink.gif

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The Grumbling Grognard

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Hmm I thought I had my ambush marker close enough and they didn't do it, however I will check because I didn't use this option much.

However I am CONVINCED about the hide thing. More than once I have gone back to a unit and it has the *Stop Hiding* option lit and they are not doing anything. However the second I unhid them they opened up.

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Richard Arnesen

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The answer is in the documentation file that comes with the demo:

"Hide, enemy target selected - unit will stay hidden until a really good shot is available against some variable unit. "

So, if you want to be sure, that your unit will fire instantly, you have to unhide it before hitting "GO".

Fred

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I usually only ambush at such close range that this simply never came up with my playing style since the AI can easily figure a shot into a platoon fo Germans at 20 metres in an open field is a good one..

Live and learn eh? wink.gif

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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True (the documentation) but IMHO it is poor implementation to do that EVEN after a fire order. I mean i yell at my guy and say fire of COURSE he knows not to hide anymore smile.gif.

And otherwise I screw up my PBEM game because I thought he would have the sense to fire.

Anyway I'll see if Charles or Steve wonder over into this thread. Not a life threatening bug but it is certaintly annoying as hell wink.gif.

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Richard Arnesen

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Richard,

I don't agree with you about this one wink.gif

It is definately not a bug, but a feature. And a nice one it is, because it handles two different orders:

1. I yell "Open fire at this MMG immediately!" (giving my target order AND unhide the unit).

2. I yell "Open fire at this MMG, if you're sure to hit it! Do not show up to soon!(I just give my target order)

This is a flexible feature, and it is a good one. That is my personal opinion. And where is the problem? If you know how it works (and it's in the documentation), you know how to achieve the result you want smile.gif

Fred

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Because it doesn't make sense at all.

We know the AI can think on its own right? If it panics or doesn't think things look good it won't fire. If it thinks there is a better target it will choose it. So that unit Ai will handle those sorts of decisions.

At the least can we make it an option PLEASE. I can see myself loosing more than one large battle because I forgot to unhide ONE unit. I mean this should be common sense for the guy if I tell him to fire. And since I start out all defense scenarios in hide or ambush that could royally screw me over.

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Richard Arnesen

The Wargamer

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Richard,

I still do not see your problem :)

You click on a unit to give your target order. So the unit is already selected. Just hit the "H" key and everything is fine.

But there are situations (at least for me) where I want to assign a target to a unit but do not want to shoot at this target right now.

Imagine a charging enemy unit, some 100 m away. I just target it (but do NOT unhide). My unit now waits until they are just 30 m away and THEN open fire.

Thats exactly what I want and it gives me a little more control. wink.gif

Fred

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I would have to agree with Richard. I think it makes sense to unhide a unit automatically when that unit is in hide mode and I give it a target order. I think it its logical and makes sense. I see my self running into trouble because of this unless it is really forced into my head smile.gif (I try not doing that).

risc

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Guest Scott Clinton

I'll have to go with the 'Feature' debate here.

If I want them to fire NOW at 2% chance to hit, I 'unhide' them.

BUT, if I want them to wait and target THAT PARTICULAR unit if and only if the chances to hit are 'good' then I can leave them hidden.

If this really works this way it is a damn good feature I will have to start using more of. smile.gif

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The Grumbling Grognard

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Guest Big Time Software

Fred is very much correct. This is a very intentional behavior. To restate the logic...

Hide + no target order = unit will stay hidden unless some random circumstance causes it to unhide. We are making Hide "stick" more now than the Demo, so units are going to be less likely to come out of Hiding.

Hide + target order = stay hidden until the designated target comes to within decent killing range, otherwise stay hidden.

I can see the point about automatically unHiding a unit when a target order is issued, but do NOT want to lose the one on one ambush feature. But I think this can happen. I have asked Charles if he can switch the logic so that by default the unit unHides when given a target order, and therefore the player MANUALLY has to Hide the unit to ambush.

This should make everybody happy wink.gif

Steve

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Guys,

IMO this is a very useful feature which imparts MORE flexibility than your solutions.

e.g. A platoon is approaching a platoon of mine which is ambushing.. As the enemy platoon nears my ambush marker (20 metres from my platoon which is hiding behind a wall) I order my men to engage the various enemy squads and teams. I make sure to order each of my units to fire on the enemy squad in front of it so my fire is dispersed throughout the entire enemy body..

As the turn progresses the enemy closes and my men hide UNTIL the enemy hits the ambush marker. One that happens my men rise as one and fire at my prechosen targets.

End result, a good player can use this to make his ambushes even more devastating.

Image a four zook ambush. An enemy armoured platoon rumbles near. As it nears you give EACH of your zooks a different target.

When the ambush is sprung your zooks kill ALL the tanks in one flurry instead of all firing on one or two tanks and ignoring the others.

This feature gives flexibility and would be a shame to lose.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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It makes perfect sense to me to have units in hide remain hidden after a targetting command has been issued. As stated if you want them to engage now just take them off hiding. If I understand Steve correctly the system will remain basically the same only default will be to come out of hide when issued a targetting order. This seems backwards to me as generally the priority would be to remain hidden until the enemy reaches the kill zone IMO.

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I have been burned a few times before by not unhiding my units when I wanted them to fire.

It especially sucked playing Riesberg as the Germans when I target my entire company on the Americans but nobody fired because they were still hiding. Luckily, it was just against the computer so I just loaded the autosave and unhid everybody.

If this was a full release this kind of thing would be in the manual (I hope) and wouldn't be a big deal.

Now that I know the reason they don't unhide I actually like it the way it is.

Better to get all of my mistakes out now than when the full game ships.

Jason

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I much preferred it as was..

I'd rather NOT fire at troops by remaining hidden until they come so close that they spark my unit's self-preservation instincts than blow NUMEROUS ambushes simply because I forget to hide them again..

I think we've swapped something which caused units not to fire if we forget to unhide them to something that's going to ruin entire ambushes time and again frown.gif (Richard, I bet you you'll hate it even more when forgetting to hide them ruins your first ambush since ambushes are potentially so devastating.)

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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Guest Scott Clinton

Fionn: I agree with you but I fail to see where the change that Steve has suggested will take anything away. Re-read his post, esp. the last line.

It seems to me the worst that can be said is that you will have an extra click to do to re-hide the unit after you target the enemy.

Or am I the one not reading it right?

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The Grumbling Grognard

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Well, what I am saying is I'd rather have the DEFAULT be that if I am forgetful it NOT blow my ambush than for the default to be changed so that if I AM forgetful my ambush WILL be blown.

I think people will be forgetful and I think that this change will result in a LOT of ambushes being blown which is a WORSE alternative to what is currently happening IMO.

Just my opinion though.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

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Here's my two cents worth. First lets look at this from a realism standpoint.

Lets say you and the "guys" are planning an ambush. You are going to go over it over and over again and carefullyplan every step. You will make sure to dot the tees and cross the eyes when it comes to making sure each guy needs to hide until X.

Now if your guys are hiding and suddenly things change. Your CO yells for you to fire. What do you do? Do you hide or barring a morale check do you rise up and fire?

As far as planning. When you are PLANNING an ambush you are already in careful planning mode. Thus you will be thinking along the lines of a checklist and what you need to include in the plan.

Now when the situation changes and you now HAVE to have your men rise up and fire in an emergency you are in a hurried state and more likely to fogret things. PLUS this gets old for every freaking unit on the map (especially without a summary sheet to see which units are still hiding wink.gif). With the Ambush you have to do this for the few units youa re ambushing with while planning. With the Hide if you Hide most of your units (like I do) then it will get old FAST having to hit H on each one. Especially in large scenarios.

Again this is my opinion but I think it makes sense.

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Richard Arnesen

The Wargamer

http://www.wargamer.com

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