a.riewe Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I just downloaded and played CMFI. Great job and great game but I was disappointed when no PANTHER tanks were available to the germans. I know at this time they had panthers in Italy because my mom who was a BDM (Female Hitler youth) member had a boyfriend in the SS Totenkopf(3.SS pzDiv.) that drove a panther tank. Before he was killed in Italy he told her they were being sent to Italy in mid 1943. I hope eventually you can address this and add to the enjoyment of this great project! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 You remember that one big tank battle in mid-1943 where they had Panthers? That's right, all Panthers that Germans could were hurried off to Kursk which took place simultaneously with Operation Husky. The SS Totenkopf division didn't serve in Italy, they spent the whole war from 1941 on in the eastern front. And they were involved in Kursk, so maybe this is where the confusion comes from. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex1 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 He may be referring to the whole theatre of operations and the panthers that may have been assigned later to the italian front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_prince Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'm not sure of the exact date that the first Panthers were used in Italy. However, my understanding was that all the available Panthers were sent to Kursk for operation Zitadelle starting at the beginning of July so I doubt there were any present in Italy at this time. In any case, I'm fairly certain that none were encountered in Sicilly, which is the period of fighting covered in the CMFI base game. Doubtless we'll see Panthers in future modules. (beaten to it by Sergei) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 There were no Panthers in Sicily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Arno, you may wish to make your details less detailed as not only bots need to be avoided but also there are really weird people here! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Arno, you may wish to make your details less detailed as not only bots need to be avoided but also there are really weird people here! Nonsense. I'm heading off to meet this guy at his home address now to discuss the matter further. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Nonsense. I'm heading off to meet this guy at his home address now to discuss the matter further. Are you walking or driving? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 About Panther units (according to Jentz): The first Abteilung was established on 9 Jan. 1943 when II./Pz.Rgt.33 was renamed Pz.Abt.51. Second Abteilung was I./Pz.Rgt.15 renamed Pz.Abt.52 on 6 Feb. 1943. On 1 March 1943 Panzer-Lehrgänge Panther was formed for training Panther crews. Two Pz.Kompanien from I./Pz.Rgt.1 were sent to Grafenwöhr for training on 5 March 1943 II./Pz.Rgt.201 (renamed II./Pz.Rgt.23 in August) began conversion in mid April Personnel from one Abteilung from SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 and 2 were ordered to return to Germany for crewing two Panther Abteilungen on 1 May 1943 I./Pz.Rgt.31, I./Pz.Rgt.11 and III./Pz.Rgt.4 (renamed I./Pz.Rgt.4 on 19 Oct. 1943) began conversion on 5 May 1943 I./PzRgt.6 was converted to Panther Abteilung on 6 August 1943 I./Pz.Rgt.2 was converted to Panther Abteilung on 25 August 1943. The Panther Abteilungen were sent to the Eastern Front in the following sequence: Pz.Abt.51, Pz.Abt.52 and Pz.Rgt.Stab 39 in July 1943 I./SS-Pz.Rgt.2 in August II./Pz.Rgt.23 in September I./Pz.Rgt.2 in October I./Pz.Rgt.1 and I./SS-Pz.Rgt.1 in November I./Pz.Rgt.31 in December After Kursk offensive started all surviving Panthers went to Pz.Abt.52, renamed I./Pz.Rgt.15 on 24 August 1943. Pz.Abt.51 was reequiped with 96 mint remplacement Panthers in early August and remained in action with PzGr.Div. Grossdeutschland On Jan. 1944 there were still no Panthers in Italy. There were 3 Flammpanzere PzKpfw III, 46 PzKpfw III(lang), 45 PzKpfw III(75), 11 PzKpfw IV(kz), 160 PzPfw IV(lang), 8 Tigers and 138 StuGs. Things went worse because H.G. was pulled out of Italy in July 1944 and 3. and 15.PzGr.Div. were pulled out in late August 1944, so just 26.Pz.Div. and 29. and 90.PzGr.Div. remained there. In mid 1943 I./Pz.Rgt.26 was sent to Germany for Panther conversion, but it never came back to the division. From Sept. to Oct. 1943 I./PzRgt.9 was attached to the 26.Pz.Div. but it didn't got the I. Abteilung back until I./PzRgt.4 was incorporated as I./Pz.Rgt.26 in April 1945. On 31 December 1943 the Panther strength in the West was: I./PzRgt.6: 76 Panther I./Pz.Rgt.4: 38 Panthers 9.SS-Pz.Div., I./SS-PzRgt.3 and I. Abteilung of Pz.Rgt. 11, 24, 25, 27, 35, G.D.: 4 Panther each 12.SS-Pz.Div. and I. Abteilung of Pz.Rgt.3 and 36: 3 Panther each Total: 155 Panthers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 double post 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Question nicely answered by the grogs Address snipped out because it's never a good idea to have Sergei visit. Especially if you have a liquor cabinet. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The first time the Americans encountered Panthers was in Italy, but it wasn't until the battle to hold the Anzio beachhead in early 1944. The German counterattacks in Sicily had Tiger Is, which had already been encountered in small numbers in Tunisia. The Salerno fighting was all Panzer IVs. The Germans did not have Panthers in theater yet. Some of the units had them on TOE but they were back in Germany training on the things. The first time they actually made it to the front was for the Anzio counterattack. They caused the Allies some trouble there, but conditions for their use were far from ideal. It was the middle of a wet Italian winter, and the Allies indundated the perimeter of the beachhead with HE, from artillery, naval gunfire, and aircraft bombs, including heavies used in a tactical role. That quickly turned the low lying battlefield into a muddy moonscape that made offroad movement by heavy armored vehicles a nightmare. And roads crossing the front lines disappeared completely. It is still a useful bit of history to understand for Allied reactions to heavy German armor. The US specifically had already built tens of thousands of Shermans with short 75mm guns that were fine against the Panzer IVs and StuGs encountered up to then. Thousands of M-10s with 76mm guns had already been fielded as well, reaching the front a full year before Panthers were available opposite them. In 1944, the US was making 76mm Shermans and 105mm Sherman assault guns, not the old short 75s. But they still had so many of the old models that they were heavily used in Normandy, which came just a few months after the Panthers had been seen and the inadequacy of the short 75mm first really became apparent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 There's that overused picture of the Italian Fernand/Elephants with the line of Panthers in the background. If nothing else that'll make for an exciting module/pack at some point in the future. That plus Panther turret pillboxes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Can't wait for the big ole Ferdies! Were they ever used on the Western Front? or only in Italy and Russia? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The first time the Americans encountered Panthers was in Italy, but it wasn't until the battle to hold the Anzio beachhead in early 1944. The German counterattacks in Sicily had Tiger Is, which had already been encountered in small numbers in Tunisia. The Salerno fighting was all Panzer IVs. The Germans did not have Panthers in theater yet. Some of the units had them on TOE but they were back in Germany training on the things. The first time they actually made it to the front was for the Anzio counterattack. They caused the Allies some trouble there, but conditions for their use were far from ideal. It was the middle of a wet Italian winter, and the Allies indundated the perimeter of the beachhead with HE, from artillery, naval gunfire, and aircraft bombs, including heavies used in a tactical role. That quickly turned the low lying battlefield into a muddy moonscape that made offroad movement by heavy armored vehicles a nightmare. And roads crossing the front lines disappeared completely. According to Jentz (Jentz, T.L., "Germany's Panther Tank", Schiffer, 1995) the first Panthers in Italy were 71 Panther D from I./SS-Pz.Rgt.1 in August 1943. However they never engaged an Allied tank (they were deployed in North Italy, far away from Salerno landings) and were sent back to Germany in October 1943. The first Panthers to see combat were 76 Panthers (mostly A with a few D) from I./Pz.Rgt.4 in February 1944. On 19 May there were 62 operational with the Abteilung. On 26 May there were 13 Panther operational out of 48 and on 1 June only 6 were reported as operational. On 14 June 1944 there were 11 Panther operational out of 17 available. 38 Panthers were shipped from Germany as reemplacement between 29 May and 5 June. Another 20 were sent between 18 and 21 September 1944 and a final batch of 10 Panthers were sent on 31 October 1944. The Abteilung became I./Pz.Rgt.26 in February 1945 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 According to Jentz again ("Panzertruppen" Vol. 2) there were the following Panzer units and strength in Italy on 21 January 1944: 26.Pz.Div.: 11 FlPz, 12 PzKpfw III(75), 11 PzKpfw IV(kz), 80 PzKpfw IV(lg), 14 StuGs Pz.Div.H.G.: 21 PzKpfw III(lg), 14 PzKpfw III(75), 27 PzKpfw IV(lg), 14 StuGs 3.Pz.Gr.Div.: 44 StuGs 15.Pz.Gr.Div.: 22 PzKpfw IV(lg), 21 StuGs 29.Pz.Gr.Div.: 41 StuGs 90.Pz.Gr.Div.: 2 PzKpfw III(lg), 14 PzKpfw III(75), 26 PzKpfw IV(lg), 4 StuGs Tiger Meyer Komp.: 8 Tigers 2.Sich.Eins.Kp.: 3 FlPz., 6 PzKpfw III(75), 5 PzKpfw IV(lg) 31.Inf.Div.: 23 PzKpfw III(lg) The Panzer reinforcements sent to Anzio were: s.Pz.Abt.508 (45 Tiger) I./Pz.Rgt.4 (76 Panther) 1./s.Pz.Jg.Abt.653 (11 Ferdinands) St.Pz.Abt.216 (57 Sturmpanzer, 5 PzKpfw II) Pz.Abt.(Fkl) 301 (30 StuGs, it was a "Goliat" unit) On late January 44, 23 PzKpfw IV had been sent as reeplacements for H.G. and 26.Pz.Div. while Pz.Abt.190 (from 90.PzGr.Div.) got 42 StuGs, their surviving Panzers beign given up to other units in Italy. 38 Panthers (see previous message) and 27 Tiger were sent as reemplacements to Italy between 27 May and 4 June. s.Pz.Abt.504 (45 Tiger) was also sent in June 44. H.G. was pulled out in July 44 but left its Panzer in Italy. 3. and 15.Pz.Gr,.Div. were pulled out in late August. 16.SS-Pz.Gr.Div. (Pz. strength unknown) transferred to Italy in June 44 to rest and refit. It was sent to Heeresgruppe Süd in Feb. 45. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Can't wait for the big ole Ferdies! Were they ever used on the Western Front? or only in Italy and Russia? Weren't there a very small number employed during the Battle of the Bulge? If so, that must have been its swan song. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorge MC Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 did i miss something or you guys saying there is no way of playing late Italy battles in CMFI just early sicily, or have to wait for the CMBN patch to do so? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Not yet...you'll be able to play the whole of Italy from 43 to 45 once all the modules are released. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 jorge, you can select july/august 1943. from what I understand it's only supposed to represent battles during those two months in sicily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Initial release is July-August Sicily. Follow on modules will push the timeframe all the way to the end of the war. It's a safe bet that the modules will cover MUCH larger tracts of time than the initial release does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 'Modules' are themed (Commonwealth, Marines, NATO, etc.). I suppose 'packs', or whatever they're going to be called, might tend to be general purpose date-sensitive 'stuff'. Instead of just getting 'Commonwealth' you might get a 'through mid-44' pack, or maybe a winter pack! That would be cool, if it's doable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougPhresh Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just wanted to bring this back from the dead to thank everyone! It is very hard to find resources on the Panthers of I./4 / I./26 in Italy. Now that Gustav Line is out, we can see that while Panthers are in the game, they are exceedingly rare. Weirdly enough, I'm really pleased by that, knowing that there might have been 6 working Panthers in Italy at one point! With SS on the horizon for the next module, would it be within the realm of possibility to have the Panthers of the LSSAH in late 1943? The unit was only in Italy for R&R and to receive Panthers, buy you never know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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