Unrealistic early italian war entry

[Sharkman]

I think the garrison rules in the med. should be re-thought. I seems too easy for the allied player to influence the italians into an ill-prepaired early entry into the war. There is little to gain for the italians from an early entry, they do not have enough land forces to launch much of an invasion anywhere, but the allies then have more time to sacrifice the french navy engaging the italians. And a combined anglo-french fleet with carrier support stationed right off of the italian ports would probably have angered Mussolini, but I doubt he would have been stupid enough to declair war under those circumstances. I really don't see the italians entering the war until the french are on the ropes, no matter what is happening elsewhere, and I would suggest some kind of italian home water tiles where allied ships cannot enter until the italians have entered the war, and I would strongly suggest the italians only declair war at the start of an axis turn. I don't think this restricts the allies at all as they still have the option to declair war against italy.

[Sharkman]

I have thought about this a little more and think the easiest solution is to leave the declairation of war up to the axis player, like the U.S. and Soviet Union work with the allies. The Italian mobilization can work like it does now, possibly with a home waters area similar to the united states, but without the automatic declairation of war. Along the same line I think a country should allways reach 100% mobilization only at the start of their own turn, if the germans fail to attack the soviets or the japenese fail to attack the U.S. then the allied player should be given the element of supprise, of coure the same goes for the Italians on the axis side, and I would even include minor countries in this rule, it seems odd that a national leader would declair war at the start of the enemey's turn, if these countries were run by human players they would'nt do that.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the thoughts Sharkman and interestingly enough I believe the original test versions actually had Italy set up the way you suggest in that you still had to DoW once you reached 100% mobilization but we ended up changing it to what it currently is for the official release.

I believe testing showed some frustration that Italy still needed to DoW and some confusion as to why it was not automatically at war. IIRC these were a few of the problems that cropped up and why we use the current model for simplification.

Some good counter points though and we'll have to think about this some more to see if there is a better overall solution/compromise.

[Sharkman]

Thanks Hubert, I really think the Italian DOW should be left to the axis player, like the soviet and US DOWs are for the allied player. Although Mussolini was unpredictable, I would prefere being able to run Italy in the game without him interfering with my strategies.

[Sharkman]

That said, I have often thought there could be an option when playing against the AI to have some historical interference from the national leaders. For example: if Rommel takes heavy losses somewhere, Hitler fires him, or Mussolini declairs war against Greece (we did have that one in earlier versions), I'm sure there could be many more, they don't nessesarily have to be historical. Some players may even like to use this option to spice up the multiplayer games, adding a little chaos to the game. I personaly don't need it in the multiplayer games, I create enough chaos on my own.

[mcaryf1]

From a purely wargaming point of view I have often felt that it would be best for an Axis player to leave Italy neutral for a while as well as setting up Vichy and not invading the Balkans. That gives Germany a solid Southern flank whilst Germany crushes the USSR and the British have nowhere sensible to fight with the Germans other than in the Atlantic or in the air.

A possibly more real possibility - if Mussolini had had any brains he could have entered the war by taking Malta in a surprise invasion as it was was virtually undefended in June 1940. However, he thought he would get it at zero cost in the peace negotiations and he only needed a few thousand dead troops on the French border to buy his way to the negotiating table rather than risking any of his prestige ships.

Regards

Mike

[Jollyguy]

I agree with Sharkman, Italy’s entry into the war shouldn’t be so easily manipulated. I should also point out that an Allied DOW of Italy comes at a fairly low cost to readiness for the benefits gained. Most of the Italian navy can be sent to the bottom, with French ships used as cannon fodder and blockers. I’ve also taken Sicily. FYI, when I’ve played Axis I’ve had this done to me also.

But I don’t agree with mcaryf1’s comment for head-to-head that would allow the Axis too much time to play with Italy’s entry. Most games the Axis puts pressure on the Brits, or the reverse, the Brits gain some ground if the Axis ignores the theatre. I think Italy should come in pretty much historically, when the panzers are rolling through Paris and the French surrender is imminent.

Bob

[xwormwood]

The only problem is that an early Italian war entry doens't create enough problems for the Allied player.

In my opinion thats the key to this problem.

Suggestions:

- early italian war entry: NM moral shock for France / the UK / ...

- early italian war entry: new (and helpful) descion evernts for the Italians

- early italian war entry: a free industrial chit for Italy (they prepare harder and sooner for the upcoming war

- early italian war entry: France feels threatened or interested, diplo values change accordingly

Long story short: the Allied player should have a big interest in keeping Italy out of the war, at least during 1939 - 1940.

[Bill101]

One thing I've wondered is what effect an Allied build up in the Med, clearly directed at a neutral Italy, might have had on US opinion at the time.

I don't know exactly, as of course it didn't happen like this, but if we make it so that when Italy mobilizes it isn't automatically at war with the Allies, then the Allies will have to declare war on Italy and this should cause some upset in the USA.

[xwormwood]

Maybe it should upset Francos Spain and other Nations instead.

OR it could ingnite uprisings in the UK and French med sea colonies.

[Colin I]

Part of the ease of manipulation is due to knowledge of scripts. The psychology of a leader, particularly someone like Mussolini, is very hard to calculate. I'd like it if unpredictable leaders had wider variation in their responses to events. Having said that a preemptive Allied strike should be possible but have big penalties.

I just wanted to add a second point. Because of the scale of GC Gold Italy is a very hard country to protect from Naval assault. I've seen massed carrier attacks leading to Rome falling in a single turn take down from the sea quite often. In reality the long Italian coastline was balanced by difficult terrain and other issues. I would suggest that carrier attacks do not degrade entrenchment, the bomb load must have been a lot less than ground based air. This would make Rome a bit more secure and more generally improve realism.

[mcaryf1]

With respect to degrading carrier attacks against ground forces, that would be historically correct for British carriers. In the early war years British carriers (with the exception of Ark Royal) had relatively small aircraft complements (typically 1/3 to 1/2 of US or Japanese CVs) and their planes were no match for Axis land based aircraft except that they could operate at night hence the Taranto success. In my trial scenarios to improve realism I give British carriers a single strike and a soft attack of 0.

A good sanction against an early French DOW on Italy would be for substantial elements of the French fleet be transferred to the Italians in reparations as part of any French peace settlement. I do not know whether it is possible to set up events based on who issued a DOW first but I think it would be historically reasonable to imagine that the French would have had to make reparations if they had DOWed Italy.

Regards

Mike

[xwormwood]

Great idea, mcaryf1.

[jon_j_rambo]

Reminds me of the Rambo Rome Invasion which was banned in SC1. Where French took Rome fifth turn of game guaranteed.

[xwormwood]

Correct, both tactics look as if they were siblings.

[jon_j_rambo]

When landing in the MedFront with significant firepower as the Allies, lots of great combo punches are avail.