John Kettler vs. CMBN--The Learning Curve!

[Michael Emrys]

Bluetak is your friend.

I recall buying a set of magnetic counter holders to use with the ridiculously tall stacks of company-sized counters in Avalanche. I tried them out and they worked okay, but I never used them in a game as the stacks were still absurdly tall. IMHO infantry should have been in battalions in that game with the possibility of breaking them down into companies at need. That would have kept the unit count down to a reasonable level while coming closer to actual practice.

Michael

[altipueri]

Did any of those tricks make the game cat proof?

[Broadsword56]

I recall buying a set of magnetic counter holders to use with the ridiculously tall stacks of company-sized counters in Avalanche. I tried them out and they worked okay, but I never used them in a game as the stacks were still absurdly tall. IMHO infantry should have been in battalions in that game with the possibility of breaking them down into companies at need. That would have kept the unit count down to a reasonable level while coming closer to actual practice.

Michael

You might be interested to know that Avalanche is being reworked and reprinted by Consim Press as a battalion level game:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1dd59cd4/243

I'm keeping my eye on this one as a good candidate for a meta-game to use with the CMFI family once it moves to the mainland boot. But since the game was still in play testing this month, I'll bet it could be a year or more before the game ever sees release.

[Michael Emrys]

Did any of those tricks make the game cat proof?

No. Nothing ever made them proof against small children either.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

You might be interested to know that Avalanche is being reworked and reprinted by Consim Press as a battalion level game:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1dd59cd4/243

Interesting alright. Sadly, I no longer play boardgame; no place to set them up. I wish this had been done 30 years ago, I probably would have loved it. Like most GDW games from the late '70s on, Avalanche was a lovely work of art.

Michael

[Lee_Vincent]

As far as moving units up into the proximity of the battle area, its usually quite acceptable to just plot a simple straight line from the unit's present location to the desired final location, using something like Quick (depending on distance so as not to tire infantry out, and whether approach avenues are concealed from enemy fire etc). The inbuilt pathfinding is quite good and will generally find an efficient path - also doing it this way means that the unit won't be stopping at intermediate waypoints to gather together before moving onto the next waypoint. Once they have arrived, then you can manage their movement up to the firing line (or wherever) in more detail. This simple method also makes playing larger scenarios far more feasible.

[Broadsword56]

Interesting alright. Sadly, I no longer play boardgame; no place to set them up. I wish this had been done 30 years ago, I probably would have loved it. Like most GDW games from the late '70s on, Avalanche was a lovely work of art.

Michael

Michael, have you tried Vassal or Cyberboard, or Zun Tzu? I have zero space to set up board wargames, and I haven't done that in 40 years. But with those computer modules, you can play almost any of them now, from the Avalon Hill and SPI classics to the latest releases (and find opponents easily online, too). Avalanche will surely have a computer module one day.

[JonS]

No. Nothing ever made them proof against small children either.

I recall reading - somewhere - about a guy who played one of those monster games over many, many months. His significant other wasn't too wild about allocating that much space to what was clearly going to be a long term project. So he mounted the maps on the wall and secured the pieces there with blutak, creating himself a nice playing surface and a constantly evolving artpiece at the same time.

Kid proof and cat proof too.

Gravity did take it's toll occasionally, at least until he got tak sizing sorted out.

[Erwin]

I still have Campaign for N. Africa and a bunch of other monsters, and at least several hundred other cardboard wargames boxed up in various garages and mostly unplayed as their complexity and time requirements became unmanageable.

Increasing "realism/complexity" was the big fashion back then. But, the average players gave up and the grognards were too few to support the biz, so it imploded and virtually collapsed. Even some really great companies, like Victory Games, West End Games etc in addition to SPI.

Most us kept buying for a few years as collectors, looking lovingly at the components but never having the time and focus to study the massive rulebooks let alone play...

[JonS]

I still have Campaign for N. Africa

Huh. I don't think I've ever 'met' anyone who actually owned CNA before

I've sometimes wondered just how good (complete, plausible, practical, etc)the log rules were in that game, and if they'd make a good basis for anything, like training, instruction, or maybe a CMMC.

[sburke]

As Broadsword put it recently on reading some reviewer talking about unpacking a board game and lovingly examining the counters. "like reading about wargamer porn". I haven't laughed that hard in quite some time. It is just too darn appropriate.

Meanwhile I mounted Screaming Eagles in Holland on a 3x4 panel and then mounted a thin sheet of plexiglass over it to allow me to mark it up to my hearts content. It has space allocated in my home office so I can stare at it and draw up op plans.....my office centerfold as it were.

[GreenAsJade]

So I guess we ran out of tips for newbies?

Shall we start a new thread when some more tips start flowing? Was loving the tips, but would rather be playing the game than reminiscing about the good ole counter days

GaJ

[sburke]

So I guess we ran out of tips for newbies?

Shall we start a new thread when some more tips start flowing? Was loving the tips, but would rather be playing the game than reminiscing about the good ole counter days

GaJ

Umm the tip was- don't play old counter games...moving right along...

[John Kettler]

Have installed CMBN and the Commonwealth Module. What a honker the first one was! Believe I am now fully up to 1.10 standards on both and have embarked upon the daunting drill known as RTFM. Unfortunately, retention may not be very good, the result not only of a contrecoup brain bleed following a very hard collision with a corner in the new place while night blinded (good for a trip to the ER, near neurosurgery and two days in the hospital), but the antiseizure med which has three fabulous side effects: brain fog, memory problems and fatigue that comes out of nowhere like a tsunami and hits just as hard. The perfect combo for mastering a new, demanding game system! As if it weren't challenging enough.

Nevertheless, I've begun to work through it, and shall then essay, not the playing fields of Eton, but the rolling hills of Devon. Believe it'll be a bit before I'm seen reporting to the motor park.

Regards,

John Kettler

P.S.

Fascinating sidebar discussion. For the record, in my long and painful experience, no wargame not glued down in some manner and on a horizontal surface is proof against a cat or a small child, both of which produce devastation ranging from tactical to strategic, depending on the game. Said devastation is always inflicted at the worst possible time--as when you're finally winning after months of defeats! But we wargamers are a hardy lot, grumble,, then carry on. We proud, we few, we wargamers!

[GreenAsJade]

Umm the tip was- don't play old counter games...moving right along...

Dang, I knew I was approaching this wrong! There I was reproducing the setup meticulously in ASL, exploring options, then playing my turn. I shouldn't do this? Dang!

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

I tried to RTFM. I didn't get a lot out of it. Anyone else?

GaJ

[Vanir Ausf B]

The unit details section is important given the lack of in-game unit stats. Other than that the manual is not as good as the CMx1 booklets. Critical information regarding UI functionality and C2 modeling is missing. It is too vague on game mechanics. A couple of sections have information carried over from CMSF that is outdated. Despite all that it's probably a good idea to give it a once-over.

[Doug Williams]

I am not a big fan of offboard artillery in Small or Tiny battles, and not even that much in Medium battles. I like to play at "Warrior" or higher difficulty setting, and my experience is it takes so long for the shells to start landing that the enemy is often not there by the time the FFE arrives. If playing a quick battle, I would rather spend my points for on-board mortars, which are quite deadly in a direct fire role....much more so than in CM1.

The exception is an Attack scenario where offboard arty can be used to good effect by the attacker to pre-bombard likely enemy setup zones. Pre-bombardment is generally frowned upon as a "gamey" tactic for meeting engagements, and the player defending in an Attack scenario, at least among the people I play.

[Baneman]

Spend the 30 points for a TRP ( or 2 )

Worth their weight in gold Not only can you drop stuff on them without having LoS, but your arty will be delivering its goodness in 2 or 3 minutes.

Two TRP's allows you to drop a linear barrage between them as well as long as the start and end points are close to each.

They also eliminate the game's spotting mechanic - which, whilst realistic, is not well represented in game ie. you have no idea whether your spotter has observed the spotting rounds or not - if not, the spotting can go on and on, well beyond the 5 mins ( for example )initially estimated for the barrage - but there's no indication in the artillery UI as to what's happening.

[Lt Belenko]

......

They also eliminate the game's spotting mechanic - which, whilst realistic, is not well represented in game ie. you have no idea whether your spotter has observed the spotting rounds or not - if not, the spotting can go on and on, well beyond the 5 mins ( for example )initially estimated for the barrage - but there's no indication in the artillery UI as to what's happening.

Yes, CMx1 would indicate how long until the rounds fell. Timing an assault with the arty has been the difficult part of my learning curve.

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

So far, I've found the thing to be front end loaded, what with all the switchology stuff and commands. I thinks it's going to be more a matter of training my fingers by doing, than simply trying to memorize.

Vanir Ausf B,

Not that far into it, but those seem like pretty serious gaps to me.

Baneman and Lt Belenko,

One of the things that's going to take getting used to is the notion of TRPs for other than artillery fire. Some time ago, I tried to get BFC to give us separate TRPs for mortars and artillery, but we got the current strange hybrid instead. Am guessing that using them with MGs is supposed to represent the FPL (Final Protective Line) such weapons shoot along in a last ditch effort to keep the enemy at bay. The lack of time to fire information is not good, as I see it, and I have yet to try to coordinate an infantry attack with artillery.

Doug Williams,

On board mortars are indeed nasty, and I have the screenshots from the Demo to prove it. And that's just with a 60mm!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

"Two TRP's allows you to drop a linear barrage between them as well as long as the start and end points are close to each."

IIRC you only need ONE TRP to do a linear barrage so long as the line starts at a TRP. At least I have done that many times. I think accuracy is the same.

BTW: I often use the technique of calling for an initial turn one preplanned barrage on any desired unseen location with max delay, then ADJUSTING as many times as desired as spotters start to see locations that one actually does want to barrage.

Am not 100% sure, but I get the sense that accuracy in these instances continues to be very good and TOT is quick - as if the new arty target(s) were set by a TRP.

[A Canadian Cat]

IIRC you only need ONE TRP to do a linear barrage so long as the line starts at a TRP. At least I have done that many times. I think accuracy is the same.

Yep, that works fine too. What @Baneman meant was you can create a nice long linear bombardment between the two TRPs. For example to cut a town in two or drop shells on a really long tree line overlooking the objective. Use two TRPs when one will not do. Actually if you have four or five you can create a network of interesting bombardment patterns if you want.

BTW: I often use the technique of calling for an initial turn one preplanned barrage on any desired unseen location with max delay, then ADJUSTING as many times as desired as spotters start to see locations that one actually does want to barrage.

Am not 100% sure, but I get the sense that accuracy in these instances continues to be very good and TOT is quick - as if the new arty target(s) were set by a TRP.

My recollection of trying that was that the adjusted mission reset the delay clock to 15min again each time you adjusted:eek:. Need to test that to see which one of our memories are correct:)

[Baneman]

"Two TRP's allows you to drop a linear barrage between them as well as long as the start and end points are close to each."

IIRC you only need ONE TRP to do a linear barrage so long as the line starts at a TRP. At least I have done that many times. I think accuracy is the same.

Never thought of that ( I'm still not gamey enough, dammit ! ) but you'd need LOS on the endpoint I imagine. Between 2 TRP's you don't need that

[Badger73]

I tried to RTFM. I didn't get a lot out of it. Anyone else?

GaJ

I did but only after spending many many hours playing the demo first. Like John, I spent several months playing and replaying the demo, working up from Basic Trainee to Warrior settings, before making the plunge to finally purchase.

Reading The Fabulous Manual (keeping this is a G-rated post btw) helped me make better sense of what I wasn't understanding very well as a player. I used it much more as a refresher than as a primer. Have made no attempt to figure out scenario design yet; too intimidated to try. Am leaving that endless time-sink for the long cold nights of the coming winter. . .