Some Tactical Advice, Please!

[Sabot6]

Hi--

I currently have a Sherman VC Firefly 860m from a hull down PzVG Panther (early), and have fired and missed two shots at it. In support, I have a Sherman III 829m from the same hull down Panther, and it too has fired twice and missed.

The Panther's turret has just swung ominously in the direction of my Firefly and my Sherman III, and just at this moment the turn ended. Talk about timing! :^)

So, do I stay put and try to outgun the Panther or should I instead pop smoke and try to get out of the way (I figure if I pop smoke I might be able to get one more shot off from each of my tanks...)?

My understanding is that the Firefly should be able to take out the Panther, and I'm hoping that the Sherman III will serve as a sufficient distraction to give the Firefly a chance to do its thing. Given this, I'm inclined to stay and duke it out (I guess I'm also hoping that the two shots from each of my tanks--each tank had one shot high and one shot low--will give me the targeting edge and that the third shot will be the charm, and will be on target before the Panther can establish the range).

What do other more experienced folks think? Thanks in advance!

Sabot6

[beatmasta]

I'd hit the reverse and fast! Even though the firefly is easily able to knock out the panther the panther can knock out the firefly even easier. So it's not advisable to stay in a shootout with panther. Move your tank to cover and when the panther is pointing again to another direction bring you fly back into action.

I just lost my firefly in one pbem game against jagdpanzer IV with one shot... I had another Sherman shooting the IV for a while with no damage. It took few hits but no major damage. Then I drove a firefly to finish the JpzIV with bad results... Firefly shot once and missed and Jpz shot once and knocked the firefly out with first shot...

[womble]

Well, since you're already lined up, you have the advantage that the Panther will get its gun lined up, then its hull will start to turn and push the gun off-angle, so until the hull has managed to turn to face, you won't be taking much fire. You'll probably get 2 or 3 shots off each before the Panther has fired more than one. Not that the non-Firefly is necessarily going to do more than bounce rounds off the target, unless you've got flanking on him.

[gunnersman]

Haha! The tension is built up and then a tv commercial break!

It's hard to say without actually "being there". Typically a third shot should be spot on. But it depends on visibility and where the first two shot went. Does your Firefly have good visibility to the Panther? Is the LOS unobstructed, as in no trees, smoke or dust in the way? Did the first two rounds land short and end up in front of the Panther or did they both go over the top? Or did one go low and the other go high? If both rounds went low or both rounds went high, chances are the third round will do the same, in my past experience. Particularly at that range.

If the German tank commander properly identified the Firefly, he will engage the Firefly first as it is the bigger threat, even though the Sherman III is closer. However, if he does not identify the Firefly first, then the Sherman III will be engaged.

If the Panther crew is a good crew with good experience, and if the LOS is clear your Shermans will not last long.

If it were me (not knowing all of the facts) it seems your Shermans have the advantage of the first shot and outnumbering the Panther 2 to 1. I would go ahead and take a chance. Even if your Firefly is taken out of the fight, the Sherman III might still be of some use providing cover for you infantry or maybe even get a lucky side shot on that Panther.

That's my humble opinion.

Good luck with the continuing episode.

[Artofwar]

WWFD = What Would the French Do

[Blazing 88's]

WWFD = What Would the French Do

Surrender.

[Fūrinkazan]

Surrender.

I can answer your question.

I would tend to do as beatmasta said. It also depends if your playing against Ai or human. A human player will target the firefly first and if you loose it you will have more problem i think.

Depends also on the experience of the German crew. You will certainly hit the Panther but not sure you'll kill it with the first shot on the target. Waiting for a flank shot is safer for your men. If the german crew is experienced thay may hit your firefly at the first shot and kill it.

But that's only my opinion. Usually i surrender at every battle i play against the AI or human when i see big german cats.

[JonS]

Make peace, you fools!

Wait, wrong guy. I'd probably just sit and slug it out. Your 'fly already has a couple of shots in, so it's accuracy should be approaching the maximum plateau. The Sherman III might provide a useful diversion to keep the 'fly alive for a bit longer. But if the 'fly bites it, I'd get the III the heck out of there, stat.

[Agua]

Yup. Let 'er rip. As you're in hull down position, you've diminished the Panther's armor advantage, you've already had a couple bracketing shots and Panther is just lining up to fire one off.

[Fūrinkazan]

Make peace, you fools!

No problem, i was just joking.

To Agua, i may have misunderstood but it seems that it's the Panther that is hull down, not the firefly.

Sabot6 wrote "from a hull down PzVG Panther".

Now, if the Panther is hull down, the Firefly will hit the turret with chances to penetrate it.

I hope that Sabot6 will let us know the result.

Maybe if you have a saved game replay it to see if the result is still the same.

If fact i think the decision depends if you're ready to take the risk to sacrifce the sherman III to kill a Panther or be more cautious and wait for a better opportunity. Not sure that the crew of the Sherman III would like to be a distracting target in real life...

[JasonC]

Stay with the Firefly if you are feeling lucky. But reverse the Sherman III out of dodge, ASAP. Any distraction value it has it has already delivered, and it is pointless to lose it if the Firefly loses the duel.

Personally I don't feel particularly lucky and would probably reverse both of them. Then if I live and the disengagement works, I'd try to set up another 2 on 1, but this time with more separation between III and Firefly, and with the III showing himself first - but not too long.

What you really want is the Panther slewing its turret 45-60 degrees away from the Firefly to track the III, and the III then reversing back out of LOS before it can get a good "bead", while the Firefly pops into LOS and pops the Panther (maybe even seeing turret side for more vulnerable armor, but any turret hit from a Firefly should kill the beastie).

When you say instead that the Panther turret is turning in the direction of *both* your tanks, it tells me there isn't enough angular separation for a good distraction. Don't sit around with both to give him a 2 for 1 if he hits the Firefly before the Firefly hits him - that is the main thing to avoid.

I hope this helps.

[George MC]

Next turn plot a reverse move for the Firefly with a 10 s delay (and get the other one out quick). This should give enough time for the next shot and get of the firing line. Compromise solution?

[womble]

Next turn plot a reverse move for the Firefly with a 10 s delay (and get the other one out quick). This should give enough time for the next shot and get of the firing line. Compromise solution?

Excellent compromise, that. It also means that if there are any other kitties coming your way, you won't be there to greet them.

[dieseltaylor]

If the German tank commander properly identified the Firefly, he will engage the Firefly first as it is the bigger threat, even though the Sherman III is closer. However, if he does not identify the Firefly first, then the Sherman III will be engaged.

My money says for sure the AI will go for the closest tank as my hunch is that it does not differentiate between tank dangerousness. If you are able to replay it may be interesting to see if you can torment the AI by moving them closer and back out to see if it changes target : )

But if it is a one off chance stay put and fight it out. We all look forward to the result.

P.S. As for backing out it only makes sense if there is a very short move to cover. And in RL, as opposed to the game, reverse was very very slow.

[SgtKopanos]

This whole thing reminds me of the Assault at Huberderie the first time I played it. And at least you seem to know where the Panther is!

As an allied player the only mobile units I started with were 3 Shermans(maybe a few halftracks, too I don't rightly remember right now). It's a bit of a huge map with varied elevation and I figured scouting out safe routes for advance with the foot scouts would take forever. So hey, why not use the Shermans? I mean, unlike my scouts if they do encounter any pockets of resistance they can do something about it most of the time.

Anyway I move them out together but with a bit of distance between them for safety.

It turned out to be a very smooth ride. I've gotten halfway to the other end of the map, only having to deal with a German sniper team the whole way and I was just crossing a paved road into a grass field, there was an ominous lone group of trees some 200 m away on my right hand but after sitting there watching it for a while I decided it's safe(I'm pretty much the definition of a noob)

So I cross all my 3 Shermans into the field. I am on high ground and the town of Huberderie is on my left hand. I give the armor, all 3 of them =( that was a bit stoopid, the order to turn their guns facing the town and take positions on a height a few meters ahead of them.

Then a mere seconds later...BOOM *pause for 5 secs* BOOM *pause for 5 secs* BOOM...and that's it...all 3 of my Shermans are all cooked up just like that. Survivors among the tank crews manage to spot the lone Panther hiding in that incospicuous group of trees we've just left behind!!!

I don't think I've ever ragequit CMBN before or since.

[Agua]

No problem, i was just joking.

To Agua, i may have misunderstood but it seems that it's the Panther that is hull down, not the firefly.

Sabot6 wrote "from a hull down PzVG Panther".

Woooops! You're right. Where's that embarassed icon thing?

[LuckyDog]

Let us know what you chose to do and what happened! I'm hooked!

[zukkov]

will the heroic allied tanks hold their ground and knock out that pesky feline?? or will the cat pounce on the 2 hapless fools and be licking his chops when the smoke clears?? stay tuned next week cat fans! same cat time, same cat channel!

[Sabot6]

Hi, Everyone--

Thanks for all of your suggestions and ideas; they were greatly appreciated!

Unfortunately the outcome was somewhat anti-climatic, as I explain below. First, some additional background which factored into my plan was that the TC of this Panther is recently departed, having been taken out by my crack sniper team about three turns before this encounter with my Firefly and Sherman III. Additionally, my plucky Sherman III slapped the Panther silly right after the TC's untimely demise with a 75mm shell to the turret, so I figured the combination of these events might slow down the Panther's overall reaction time enough so that having my tanks stick around for a bit wouldn't be completely irrational.

I realized, though, that going toe-to-toe with the Panther for any extended length of time would be the equivalent of signing my own death warrant, so I ultimately came to the same conclusion that some of you suggested: a 10 second pause to enable me to get two shots off, and then to retreat to safety. I also decided to keep my Sherman III in the mix for these 10 seconds, as I thought he could be helpful as a distraction to the Panther, and also he might get lucky and hit the Panther's shot trap or maybe mess up its optics a bit (wishful thinking, I know...).

So what happened (drum roll, please!)? Basically, not much! :^) Each of my tanks got two shots off, and again managed to bracket the Panther high and low (in fact, the first shot from my Firefly screamed inches over the Panther's cupola: had the TC still been alive instead of crumpled in a lifeless heap in the turret, he surely would have gotten a new part in his hair...). The Panther quizzically swung its turret back and forth, but could not seem to acquire either of my tanks (in the interests of full disclosure, I should also add that we're separated by ~800m of undulating terrain as well as numerous copses of trees, so getting a LOS let alone a LOF is no mean feat).

After 10 seconds, both of my tanks dutifully reversed out of trouble, or so I thought. Given my questionable leadership skills, however, I actually put my Sherman III into the LOS/LOF to a second Panther that had come up alongside the first. Never one to back down, it managed to get two quick shots off and hit the second Panther's weapon mount/gun mantlet both times. Then, mercifully, the turn ended. Two hits but no runs, so to speak....

So, I think I'll count my blessings and get my Sherman III out of harm's way for sure this time (interestingly, this second Panther is also having a hard time acquiring my Sherman III, as there were no return shots in the ~35 seconds that I had LOS/LOF). I think my next move will be to see if I can sneak around for a flank or a rear shot, as I don't want to tempt fate again head-on, particularly with two of those beasts out there....

[George MC]

Good effort - sounds like you've hurt him more than he has hurt you

Out of interest what is the scenario you are playing? It sounds like Les Grandes Bonfaits?

[c3k]

Bah. You're here to FIGHT! Get those tanks back up in the line and have them engage the Panther. Worst case? You lose two tanks. But, then you'll gain two teams which cannot be stopped! Dismounted tank crews are the secret weapon in this game.

Gunfire is more exciting than the sound of tracks clinking as a tank slinks away in fear.

Bah.

[A Canadian Cat]

LOL - don't listen to c3k Discretion is the better part of valor. You got in some hits and have a plan to flank - that is the right thing to do.

[Sabot6]

Hi, George MC--The scenario in question is "The Mace" from the CW module, and so far it's a lot of fun!

c3k--I just didn't think it would be fair to unleash my uber tank crews on my unsuspecting opponent; just watching them grab the Panther's gun barrel and bite through it with their teeth is such a morale hit.... :^)