Upgrades Q&A

[Michael Emrys]

What happens with ongoing games? Will it be possible to transition CMBN save games to 2.0?

I believe that's been answered in the negative. The suggested workaround is to have two copies of the game, one you keep at 1.10 to finish games begun under that version, and another upgraded to 2.0 for starting new games.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Correct. We do not support migrating save games to newer versions, either point releases or the new major version changes. Sometimes they worked anyway, but it was never recommended.

Steve

[Niko3]

So, what does this mean in concrete terms for you right now, playing Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy and enviously gawking at the Combat Mission: Fortress Italy feature list? It means that once CMFI is out sometime in August, we'll work on an Upgrade 2.0 for CMBN. You will be able to buy this upgrade (the price is not yet determined), install it and voila, you will have Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy v2.0!!! The upgrade will automatically work for the base game and the Commonwealth module.

After read this I just can say this is AWESOME, so you will need to pay for something that had to be in the CMx2 engine and now have to pay for every "upgrade/patches" Battlefront make after any module is created; It is clearly abusive, I finished with this CMx2? series, good luck but sincerely with this priority to take money for all now u is a great error, many gamers like me have the same opinion.

Time to back AGAIN to CMx1

[ChrisND]

After read this I just can say this is AWESOME, so you will need to pay for something that had to be in the CMx2 engine and now have to pay for every "upgrade/patches" Battlefront make after any module is created; It is clearly abusive, I finished with this CMx2? series, good luck but sincerely with this priority to take money for all now u is a great error, many gamers like me have the same opinion.

Time to back AGAIN to CMx1

Let me make sure I've got this straight: Battlefront is bad and abusive because they want money for their products, they should give it to you for free so you are leaving? Wow, with customers like that, who needs enemies? :eek:

[ZPB II]

Niko3, in what country do you live where you don't have to pay for stuff?

PATCHES FOR CMX2 WILL STILL BE FREE BUT UPGRADES WHICH MEANS NEW STUFF FOR THE GAME WILL COST MONEY. PATCHES WILL FIX OLD CONTENT SO IT WORKS AS INTENDED AND WILL BE FREE. UPGRADES WILL CONTAIN NEW CONTENT THUS YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS NEW CONTENT.

When a new version of a product comes out, it costs money. This is how the world works. I would love to have a new car but those abusive, greedy Germans want me to pay for it EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE SAME MODEL OF THE CAR I HAVE I DO NOT UNDERSTAND???

[Niko3]

First at all I will appreciate if all the answer are the same polite as I was in my post, I can understand that many people don't think like me, sounds awesome but at less, again be polite.

Be rude or scream don't makes you be right.

At the moment I don't know any company that have to pay for patches/upgrades like Battlefront, they didn't before with CMx1 and many games, if you don't want to see this point and want to pay for something that have to be free is up to you.

[ChrisND]

First at all I will appreciate if all the answer are the same polite as I was in my post.

So the sarcasm and accusations of abusive behavior in your post were polite?

At the moment I don't know any company that have to pay for patches/upgrades like Battlefront,

It seems you are having trouble with this concept. Let's try this again:

You don't have to pay for patches.

Again:

You don't have to pay for patches.

One more time:

You. don't. have. to. pay. for. patches.

For upgrades? Yes. And why you expect it should be free boggles the mind. Battlefront has to expend a lot of time and money making these new features. So why again should they give it to you for free? And yes, other companies charge for upgrades, er, all the time as a normal part of business. As a recent example, see the new Civilization "expansion", which was really upgrades to the game engine?

This attitude smacks of entitlement.

[ZPB II]

You are not paying for patches. Patches are free. Upgrades cost money. There will be free patches for all versions of the games.

If you want a new version of Windows it costs money. New version of Cubase costs money. New version of Office costs money. New version of Photoshop costs money. New version of Maya costs money.

Enough examples for you?

I would love to be polite but you are spreading lies.

[Niko3]

I didn't be sarcastic at less want's my intention, just ask for something to simple like be polite, sorry if that makes you angry.

What you call "upgrade" fix many things that had to be on CMBN mixed with some minors new things, that is my point so if in every new module they make you have to pay for upgrade all the rest of your games, right now just have CMBN but in the future would be many of them, that is ridicules, so for example, what happen with the flamethrowers that have to be in CMBN? will need to pay if they come in another module?? awesome.

[Fizou]

ZPB II,

Im beting Greece ;-)

Niko3,

You can still play the game you bought. You dont have to buy any upgrades or modules if you dont want to. If you had read up on the business model you would have known it was like this since the start of cmx2. You pay for new content and features unless they are minor ones that are included in free patches. Flamers wasent part of cmbn so naturaly you dont get them for free whenever they show up. If you werent happy with that you should have waited for whatever base game that includes the stuff you cant live without.

[ChrisND]

I didn't be sarcastic at less want's my intention, just ask for something to simple like be polite, sorry if that makes you angry.

When you say "awesome", but don't mean it, that is called sarcasm. It is generally not regarded as being polite.

What you call "upgrade" fix many things that had to be on CMBN mixed with some minors new things, that is my point so if in every new module they make you have to pay for upgrade all the rest of your games, right now just have CMBN but in the future would be many of them, that is ridicules, so for example, what happen with the flamethrowers that have to be in CMBN? will need to pay if they come in another module?? awesome.

Flamethrowers did not HAVE to be in CMBN. Maybe you WANTED them in CMBN, but those aren't the same things. Nothing is being "fixed". Things are being "added". There is a big difference. Because the game didn't include everything you wanted it to, you should get those for free? This is a line of thought I don't understand. I can't just dream up a list of stuff I want and then demand that I get them for free.

No one is making you buy the upgrade. Your game will continue to work just fine without it. So if you find the features underwhelming (and depending on how you play CMBN, that is a very possible situation), just don't buy the upgrade and wait till it has things you do want.

[Sixxkiller]

Upgrade and patch are completely different. When has BFC ever not supported their products before?

Besides, if you ever bought a module before, you bought content that also included the enhancements. So just think of the term like a module and you will make more sense of it.

[Stagler]

A few months after the new game releases, owners of previous Combat Mission games can purchase Upgrades to add those features to CM products they already own.

Does this mean Shock Force and CMA? If so you can take my money and I will summersault out the window.

[sburke]

Does this mean Shock Force and CMA? If so you can take my money and I will summersault out the window.

You need to read the announcements a little more slowly and the discussion on the boards. CMSF is specifically excluded. It is simply too much to bring it up to par. Everything in it and all it's modules would have to be redone, essentially a whole new game. CMA is not strictly speaking BF's. it is a 3rd party production.

signed - fanboy # 7459

[juan antonio]

I have to say I´m a bit confused about what should be consider an upgrade and a patch.

Since the game came out, players have complained that the game was missing a cover arc for armor, which was present in CMx1. So many will consider adding this feature as a patch.

Other things, like new units, could be considered an upgrade.

I wonder if when a player upgrades CMBN, can he play with players that are not upgraded? As small as this comunity is, dividing it might make it imposible to hold tournaments.

At least in Microsoft Office products, when you upgrade your software, you can still share files with previous versions (and boy do people complain when they can´t).

I hope is the same here. That upgrades can be turned easily on or off, to make it viable to play with other players that have different upgrades.

Imagine if Microsoft came out with a new MS Excel stating that it was not compatible with newer versions?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Since the game came out, players have complained that the game was missing a cover arc for armor, which was present in CMx1. So many will consider adding this feature as a patch.

Other things, like new units, could be considered an upgrade.

New features are an upgrade. If you feel the new features are not worth what they are charging or should have been free you can go play ARMA. Some people will. New units are neither an upgrade or a patch but a module

I wonder if when a player upgrades CMBN, can he play with players that are not upgraded? As small as this comunity is, dividing it might make it imposible to hold tournaments.

It's been confirmed that you can't, same as players with different patch versions can't play each other. I don't think it will have much affect as far as fragmenting the community since pretty much everyone who does not upgrade will be playing ARMA anyway.

[Michael Emrys]

I hope is the same here. That upgrades can be turned easily on or off, to make it viable to play with other players that have different upgrades.

It's easy if you have enough room on your HD for both an upgraded and non-upgraded version of the game. Then you can play either way depending on which version your opponent has.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I would imagine the non-upgrade copy of the game would be grandfathered-out rather quickly. You play through your standing games, the number or remaining non-upgrade opponents dwindles. Plus you start playing new titles. There won't be upgrade and non-upgrade version of CMFI, there will just be CMFI.

[sburke]

I would imagine the non-upgrade copy of the game would be grandfathered-out rather quickly. You play through your standing games, the number or remaining non-upgrade opponents dwindles. Plus you start playing new titles. There won't be upgrade and non-upgrade version of CMFI, there will just be CMFI.

How many people are really going to want to maintain an older copy of CMBN once the new feature capability is there? I can guarrantee none of my PBEM opponents will and frankly if they didn't upgrade they'd find me less willing to play a game - I want those armored covered arcs and the new UI and the new models and shading and new scenarios in MG with vehicles from Nov 1944 and movable waypoints and and......

I think this whole discussion of upgraded players and non upgraded players is just a red herring.

[womble]

Since the game came out, players have complained that the game was missing a cover arc for armor, which was present in CMx1. So many will consider adding this feature as a patch.

So those people think the car they bought should have had electric windows, and expect those as a free addition? No. So why would they think that something that they thought "should" have been in the original game is a "patch"?

Other things, like new units, could be considered an upgrade.

Read the posts by the, y'know, producers of the game, which clearly explain in words of few syllables exactly what they mean by "patch", "upgrade" and "module", and what you can expect to be in each.

[Battlefront.com]

A product, any product, has a certain feature list. There are no such things as "must haves" unless they are mandated by law (such as seat belts in cars, safety mechanisms on firearms, etc). When a consumer goes to purchase a product he makes a decision to buy, or not buy, based on what is actually in the product. Not what he wants it to have, not what previous products might have had, but what it actually has. If the feature list isn't right for that customer, then he should not buy it.

That is the only equation that exists. Any expectations beyond that are unreasonable and unrealistic.

I also find it amusing that people can say "hey, CMBN doesn't have flamethrowers!! CMBO had flamethrowers, therefore we should have it for free!" without also saying, "CMBO didn't have deformable terrain to allow for explicit breaching of bocage, therefore we should not have it in CMBN!! TAKE IT OUT!!!!"

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I don't know why such simple concepts are so difficult to grasp...

Patch = fixes things that are technically broken or, in some cases, not working as they probably should. Never any new content.

Upgrade = new features or major improvements to existing features. Never any new content.

Module = new game content and new game content only. There are no features or fixes which aren't also available as a free Patch or part of an Upgrade.

There's no blurry lines here. Very straight forward.

The only wee bit of gray area is what constitutes a new feature. It's pretty clear to us, but it can be a little confusing in places for you customers. So here's an example. Something like Cover Armor Arc is unquestionably a "new feature". Previous versions did not have a Command for this, nor did they have the TacAI necessary to make it work. That goes into an Upgrade. Something like changing the TacAI to better use an existing piece of terrain is a "tweak" and therefore goes into a Patch.

Steve

[slysniper]

I don't know why such simple concepts are so difficult to grasp...

Patch = fixes things that are technically broken or, in some cases, not working as they probably should. Never any new content.

Upgrade = new features or major improvements to existing features. Never any new content.

Module = new game content and new game content only. There are no features or fixes which aren't also available as a free Patch or part of an Upgrade.

There's no blurry lines here. Very straight forward.

The only wee bit of gray area is what constitutes a new feature. It's pretty clear to us, but it can be a little confusing in places for you customers. So here's an example. Something like Cover Armor Arc is unquestionably a "new feature". Previous versions did not have a Command for this, nor did they have the TacAI necessary to make it work. That goes into an Upgrade. Something like changing the TacAI to better use an existing piece of terrain is a "tweak" and therefore goes into a Patch.

Steve

You are absolutely correct.

But I do know where some of these guys get their concept of what they think they can demand from you for free. "other game companies"

I am amazed at times at some of the things I have received in free upgrades from some companies.

The most amazing being a complete game on the same engine - that being Red Orchestra when they did darkest hour. I never could figure the bussiness logic of that, but they did it and I assume it helped generate additional selling of the base game, but I wonder about that.

Anyway, continue on the path you have made, as you said, you have managed to stay in there these many years as a company, it looks good for the future and you all seem to be doing ok with the choices you have made.

You have been successful in a area that is full of challenges and deal with users that are at times just a pain in the ***.

But I am grateful you spend your talent and energy in this hobby and am so willing to continue on with new design, even when it comes back at you in many unthoughtful comments.

I just hope to be buying you products up until I am too old to find use in them anymore.

[akd]

The most amazing being a complete game on the same engine - that being Red Orchestra when they did darkest hour. I never could figure the bussiness logic of that, but they did it and I assume it helped generate additional selling of the base game, but I wonder about that.

Darkest Hour is a community mod.

[gunnersman]

I don't know why such simple concepts are so difficult to grasp...

Patch = fixes things that are technically broken or, in some cases, not working as they probably should. Never any new content.

Upgrade = new features or major improvements to existing features. Never any new content.

Module = new game content and new game content only. There are no features or fixes which aren't also available as a free Patch or part of an Upgrade.

There's no blurry lines here. Very straight forward.

The only wee bit of gray area is what constitutes a new feature. It's pretty clear to us, but it can be a little confusing in places for you customers. So here's an example. Something like Cover Armor Arc is unquestionably a "new feature". Previous versions did not have a Command for this, nor did they have the TacAI necessary to make it work. That goes into an Upgrade. Something like changing the TacAI to better use an existing piece of terrain is a "tweak" and therefore goes into a Patch.

Steve

This is interesting to me. I just finished listening to a National Public Radio "Planet Money" podcast. (They do a good job explaining economics).

"The Cost of Free Donuts".

It was about how WW2 vets today are still bitter about the Red Cross charging money for coffee and donuts during WW2 when the donuts and coffee were originally free of charge.

The story is (as I'm sure some of you grogs are aware) when US Infantry set up camp in Britain, the Red Cross provided many services that the British soldier never had access to. A big complaint was the US soldier was getting free coffee and donuts. This caused much friction, apparently. So the Red Cross was forced by the US government to charge something for the coffee and donuts. Well...the US soldier was very accustomed to have their coffee and donuts for free. Then all of a sudden, one day, the coffee and donuts started costing them money. And WW2 vets have been very upset ever since because they viewed the coffee and donuts as something they deserved to have.

In economic terms this is called a "Categorical Change".

This sounds alot like why some people are complaining. They think they deserve to have flamethrowers, or this, that and the other.

Just a thought.