Dan Dare Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 btw...Mr Battlefront...when will we get the flavour object that it is so clearly shown in the manual but it is completly missing in the game? (yes, the civilian scrapped truck) this will be in a patch, an upgrade or in a module...and the upgraded king tiger model? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 This is interesting to me. I just finished listening to a National Public Radio "Planet Money" podcast. (They do a good job explaining economics). "The Cost of Free Donuts". It was about how WW2 vets today are still bitter about the Red Cross charging money for coffee and donuts during WW2 when the donuts and coffee were originally free of charge. The story is (as I'm sure some of you grogs are aware) when US Infantry set up camp in Britain, the Red Cross provided many services that the British soldier never had access to. A big complaint was the US soldier was getting free coffee and donuts. This caused much friction, apparently. So the Red Cross was forced by the US government to charge something for the coffee and donuts. Well...the US soldier was very accustomed to have their coffee and donuts for free. Then all of a sudden, one day, the coffee and donuts started costing them money. And WW2 vets have been very upset ever since because they viewed the coffee and donuts as something they deserved to have. In economic terms this is called a "Categorical Change". This sounds alot like why some people are complaining. They think they deserve to have flamethrowers, or this, that and the other. Just a thought. So are you saying BF's US customer base was gonna get the upgrade for free, but the Brits complained? Damn them!!!! Seriously - interesting story. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 btw...Mr Battlefront...when will we get the flavour object that it is so clearly shown in the manual but it is completly missing in the game? (yes, the civilian scrapped truck) this will be in a patch, an upgrade or in a module...and the upgraded king tiger model? Your post immediately sent me to peruse my manual, but sadly I don't see a Civilian Scrapped Truck in the Flavour Objects list - is this perhaps in the CW manual ? Personally I'd love lots more flavour objects - lots of wrecked burnt out vehicles would be nice ( it's ok to have burning ones in scenarios, but some old hulks would also look good ). More war detritus in general. Wrecked tanks sans turret. Separate turret to be placed nearby. Remains of an aid station. Just stuff to give you the feel that you've taken ground the enemy was holding - would be particularly immersive in campaign battles. When you have time, of course 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't know why such simple concepts are so difficult to grasp... Patch = fixes things that are technically broken or, in some cases, not working as they probably should. Never any new content. Upgrade = new features or major improvements to existing features. Never any new content. Module = new game content and new game content only. There are no features or fixes which aren't also available as a free Patch or part of an Upgrade. There's no blurry lines here. Very straight forward. The only wee bit of gray area is what constitutes a new feature. It's pretty clear to us, but it can be a little confusing in places for you customers. So here's an example. Something like Cover Armor Arc is unquestionably a "new feature". Previous versions did not have a Command for this, nor did they have the TacAI necessary to make it work. That goes into an Upgrade. Something like changing the TacAI to better use an existing piece of terrain is a "tweak" and therefore goes into a Patch. Steve Steve, you really should make this a sticky! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Your post immediately sent me to peruse my manual, but sadly I don't see a Civilian Scrapped Truck in the Flavour Objects list - is this perhaps in the CW manual ? Personally I'd love lots more flavour objects - lots of wrecked burnt out vehicles would be nice ( it's ok to have burning ones in scenarios, but some old hulks would also look good ). More war detritus in general. Wrecked tanks sans turret. Separate turret to be placed nearby. Remains of an aid station. Just stuff to give you the feel that you've taken ground the enemy was holding - would be particularly immersive in campaign battles. When you have time, of course Baseman, it's #8 in the junk objects in the picture in the manual, but in the editor, the number of objects only goes up to 6. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Steve, you really should make this a sticky! That was my thought too. Put that statement in its own thread, make the thread a sticky, and lock it. That way, any time somebody has trouble keeping the different categories straight, it would be a simple matter to point them to it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Steve, you really should make this a sticky! Better yet, I made an "Announcement" post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/announcement.php?f=137&a=545 Enjoy! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Awww, 10 bucks! What are you thinking, man?!!? Who's gonna pop for that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Awww, 10 bucks! What are you thinking, man?!!? Who's gonna pop for that? Yeah really I already paid for the Vista patch, shouldn't this be included? That's almost a qtr tank in the Gremlin!! *based on manufacturers srp for the State of California, licenses taxes and fees not included. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 <breathlessly> Take me, Garth! Where? You don't have a coat and I'm almost out of gas! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 This will help everybody keep the facts straight and not get confused by grumblers who seem to not understand the basics. Hopefully you guys can help us keep the grumblers from spreading disinformation based on their ignorance of how things are set up: BAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! uh...*clears throat*... Yes of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 ZPB II, Im beting Greece ;-) I laughed so hard at that. There is so much Euro crisis debate right now, last I heard is Spaniards saying us Finns are dikkhedz because we wanted the slightest guarantee that we will be hearing about those millions going down the drain. So sad. Spending someone else's money and then hating on them sounds a wee bit ungrateful to me. Those funny southern people and their utter lack of fiscal discipline. Back on topic, I was more than pleasantly surprised at the mere fee of 10 dollars. That'll be probably round about 15 000 euros by the time it comes out. Actually, I just read the feature list again since I had only briefly glanced it earlier. I now have the heebie-jeebies or whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Atleast we are funny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I am planning to start a petition where young women from Euro crisis countries are sent as a form of pledge to the money-lending countries. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Atleast we are funny. Untrue statement follows: The only funny Spaniard was Andrew Sachs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 HAHA! I was thinking the same thing I know I've said it here before, but one of the big UK newspapers did a survey asking Britons which character in Fawlty Towers they related to the most. And guess what the answer was Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Upgrade and patch are completely different. When has BFC ever not supported their products before? Besides, if you ever bought a module before, you bought content that also included the enhancements. So just think of the term like a module and you will make more sense of it. You want an example? I'll give you an example. When CMAK was released it had the fix to the fortifications bug that existed (and still exists) with CMBB. Despite having the fix in the next version of the game (i.e. CMAK), a patch was never released to remedy the well documented problem in CMBB... despite it being a product that was only 1 version old at the time. If you refer to recent statements by BFC they have made it clear that they will always upgrade/fix software that is only 1 version old. Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 You want an example? I'll give you an example. When CMAK was released it had the fix to the fortifications bug that existed (and still exists) with CMBB. Despite having the fix in the next version of the game (i.e. CMAK), a patch was never released to remedy the well documented problem in CMBB... despite it being a product that was only 1 version old at the time. If you refer to recent statements by BFC they have made it clear that they will always upgrade/fix software that is only 1 version old. Regards KR uh oh that again..... not quite sure how that is germaine. CMSF is surely not 2 versions back and it is not getting upgraded. CMBO was only 1 version behind CMBB but it never got upgraded. The policy is new based on the work BFC has been doing with CMx2. CMSF is just too far different to make it possible, it would mean redoing the entire game. The line is drawn at CMBN and thankfully does include that. BF could simply have said, "starting with version 2 and going forward, we are not doing CMBN as it would require a major rework of all the components". Instead they are including CMBN for a measly $10! Christ the fools, I'd have paid a LOT more for that - their business model is fundamentally flawed!! This whole red herring issue about the vista patch has been explained ad nauseum. Is it really THAT hard to understand why it had what it had and why it didn't have what it didn't have for $5? C'mon KR I know you are smarter than that. Did you really read BF's announcement to imply it would apply to a product that old? Is it really that much of a stretch to understand why BF chose the approach they did and can't we just appreciate all the really cool aspects of what they just announced? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I understand that BFC will not go back and patch CMBB after so many years have passed since the fortifications bug was known about. I just see it as an opportunity missed to have created a buttload of goodwill with the community. As for the announced improvements with version 2.0, I am certainly looking forward to them. I also think that a cost of $10 is reasonable for the upgrade to version 2.0 in CMBN. Just to clear up one thing as well, I have never complained about the fact that it cost me $5 to pay for the CMBB Vista patch, just so we're on the same page here. I believe what certain people may have incorrectly attributed to be my beef on costs of patches and upgrades should actually be applied to another poster here at the BFC forums. Cost has never been my problem, just the lack of what I considered to be an important final patch to rectify software that was still only 1 generation old at the time the opportunity to do so was there. Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I understand that BFC will not go back and patch CMBB after so many years have passed since the fortifications bug was known about. I just see it as an opportunity missed to have created a buttload of goodwill with the community. Sorry if I sound crass, but if someone has that big of a bee in their bonnet about something so infinitesimally small and insignificant in the big picture, then there's probably NOTHING we can do to gain their "goodwill". I mean seriously... "Battlefront, I have played your games for thousands of hours. I still think they are the best games ever. But you didn't fix this one bug, so you guys have lost my goodwill". C'mon... doesn't that strike you as a little... petty? One really great lesson we've learned in all these years of game development... some people revel in being unhappy. That's a problem that can't be patched. As for the announced improvements with version 2.0, I am certainly looking forward to them. I also think that a cost of $10 is reasonable for the upgrade to version 2.0 in CMBN. Thank you for that. Cost has never been my problem, just the lack of what I considered to be an important final patch to rectify software that was still only 1 generation old at the time the opportunity to do so was there. I think you're getting things confused here. What I said about supporting the previous version going forward applies to now (CMBN) going forward, not CMx1. CMx1 was developed under a totally different strategy. A strategy that was abandoned, in part, to address player desire for rolling forward support. As a historical note, as far as I can remember we stopped supporting CMBO before we created CMAK, we stopped supporting CMBB before CMAK, and we stopped supporting all by 2005 IIRC. The Vista patch was an anomaly and was designed solely to fix the Vista problem. It wasn't ever intended to be an open ended bug fixing patch for various things that weren't fixed before. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 One really great lesson we've learned in all these years of game development... some people revel in being unhappy. That's a problem that can't be patched. Steve, just be glad you aren't developing a flight simulator. The type of rhetoric and whining that goes on at some flight sim forums makes the forums here look like a monastery by comparison. I'm close friends with the publisher of Rise of Flight, and some days he tells me it drives him crazy some things people post on the forums. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Some people revel in being unhappy. That's a problem that can't be patched. Sig material, right there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niessuh Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 You read correctly. Ten Dollars. That's less than the cost of one 2 hour movie, a lunch out, or two cups of mediocre coffee. All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie, a dish for the lunch or sugar for the coffee. Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades. If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit, paid patching is a deception. Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer. A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/06/the-sicilian-defence-battlefront-talk-plans-prices-pixies/#comments 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 There's so much clueless drivel that I stopped reading after a short while. First off, how is it bad that a game is in constant motion and gets added content? It's not about stealing your money, it's about delivering content and you get to choose what you wish pay and play. "It’s unacceptable to charge for engine upgrades. No other company would get away with this" I would like to write something along the lines of "f******* re****ds." Apparently he has never heard of DLC, expansions packs or simply upgrades. Everyone else gets away with them but BFC gets the flak. Developers around the world charge for content. This is just such an outwordly stupid thing to say that it's starting to hurt my head. There's a ****ton of games out there that have expansion packs that cost money to add new features. BFC offers an additional option to keep your older games up to date. The cretins still complain. "I am sad to say that there are in fact other developers who did this and did get away with it. Like Eagle Dynamics with their Black Shark 2.0 for example. Yes, also a niche market company…it is kind of setting a trend here. I doubt these kinds of things are ever “lauded”, but I suppose most of us reluctantly accept the developer’s claims at face value, that those extra expenses are necessary for them in order to continue producing games/sims in their respective niche markets. It is a sad state of affairs, but with the lack of any real competition I am not sure what we can do about it." It's like a neverending loop of idiotism. He admits the market being niche yet cannot comprehend the fiscal realities associated with niche markets. So funny. He just presents his opinion as a fact. "I think that expenses in a niche market can never go up thus this is a fact and the developers are robbing me." As a consumer he has his right to an opinion and I have a right to think of him as a clueless twat. I can't read any more. There's no logic and it's so goddamn stupid it hurts my head. The funniest part is, should all niche developers go out of business and the games stop coming out, these same people would be moaning about that too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie, a dish for the lunch or sugar for the coffee. Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades. If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit, paid patching is a deception. Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer. Niessuh, give me your honest opinions. Are the developers of Windows, Office, Cubase, Maya etc. all lying thieves? They demand you to pay for upgrading their products. Am I entitled to a free version of Cubase 6.5 if I have purchased 2.7 back in the day? Don't drag in public relations or any of that stuff. Just give me the basic logic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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