Moon Posted May 2, 1999 Share Posted May 2, 1999 Since I know that you LOVE flamethrowers, Steve, I was curious about their effects in CM (I think I remember a really old discussion about this, but why not ask again?) I've seen houses and tanks burning in the screenshots - what else can we flame? Will trees, hedges, fields, fences and wooden bridges burn as well (causing smoke and hindering LOS)? How lethal ARE flamethrowers in the game? According to my readings, they had a HUGE impact on morale for the teams on the "hot" end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted May 2, 1999 Share Posted May 2, 1999 and in a similiar vein, are there going to be any restraints to keep a player from setting fire to entire town? No doubt we all dream of toastng our enemies alive in their urban positions, but its my understanding that intentionally destroying towns by fire was a pretty rare thing on the west front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 1999 Share Posted May 2, 1999 Who told you I like things that make stuff burn? Flamethrowers can ignite ANYTHING but water based terrain (swamp, river, lake, etc.) on fire. However, weather will reduce the chances. Can't ignite snow, you know! A flamethrower can take out any tank, and lay waste any fortification. If it gets REALLY lucky it can torch troops. But CM's targeting AI treats Flamethrowers at close distance as a high priority target. There are only two men in a team, they are likely to run if fired up hard enough, and they have a short range. So, sneak them up and take out a pillbox, but don't keep them in the frontline. When I used a flamethrower last year I got a bit of a history lesson from the ex-US Army guy that instructed me how to use his "toy". He said that at first FT teams were left on their own, and suffered heavy losses. So they changed tactics and a whole platoon would secure the area first, then the FT guys would sneak up, guided by one of the platoon members, to the traget and WHAM. Then he would get the Hell out of there. After using FTs in CM, I have got to tell you that this is the ONLY way to use them. Can't tell you how easy it is to lose them... Yes, a big morale buster. We actually had a logic problem where the unit would go to ground instead of run away. I watched a WH squad get wasted in 4 bursts in the woods. No way would they have stayed there for a second after the first. So we tweaked the logic, and now they *should* run for their lives (hmmm... forgot if I tested this. Months ago..) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 1999 Share Posted May 2, 1999 Chris, yes. Each Flamethrower only has 6 one second bursts. I suppose you could waste them all on houses, but not a good idea. Generally you shouldn't have FTs unless there is a reason for them, like bunkers to be burned. So wasting their "ammo" is like having a tank shoot HE at some useless unit for several turns while enemy tanks are roaming around. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 2, 1999 Share Posted May 2, 1999 That is interesting that we can torch everything on the map that is burnable. what are the effects of that, just a bunch of smoke? Or can we actually burn stuff out of the way? Like hedgerows or fences? Alos, will fire spread? Like if we torch the corner of a fence, will the fire spread down the fence in both directions? Or from tree to tree? House to house? I assume there will be wind in CM, so what effect will the wind have on fire? Will it make fire jump roads? If rain and snow effect fire, I think wind should too. Especially when it comes to smoke. The direction of the wind should determine the direction the smoke blows. (i noticed on the screen-shots that the smoke was going directly straight up into the air...was there no wind in those shots?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 3, 1999 Author Share Posted May 3, 1999 Can you order troops (squads and vehicles) to move through an area on fire? Can you enter buildings that are on fire? Or will the troops choose an alternative route around the burning area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 3, 1999 Share Posted May 3, 1999 Fire is handled more generically. A burning fence or a section of a hedge won't have a meaning impact on the game at CM's scale. Picture a burning clump of grass in a 7500sq meter map. There should be no effect on the game what so ever. So when you see a piece of terrain on fire, it is a significant area. That is why a flamethrower does not necessarily light up something that it flames (sorry, I totally forgot to mention this above). Other things can set stuff on fire, like flamethrowing tanks, burning vehicles, artillery, etc. But each only has a chance of setting a meaningful fire, based on unit, terrain, and weather. Objects, like houses, buildings, vehicles, troops, pillboxes, etc will be more likely to be touched off because they are more confined targets. You could, however, blast away on a patch of grass and have nothing happen. Sure, in real life you might have touched off a tiny fire, but in CM terms this means nothing. However, fire can spread. Some things on fire will produce smoke. Depends. But no unit will be able to navigate through a burning area. Again, it is a scale thing. If you see a burning area in CM, this is a significant fire. Little fires could be negotiated, but they aren't simulated for that very reason. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 3, 1999 Share Posted May 3, 1999 So if we see something burning in CM it is a fire that has consumed a significant area. Ok, so if a fire is that big, then it must be a pretty violent one, with lots of flame and smoke and energy. So that leads me to three questions: 1. how easily and quickly will fire spread? (It seems to me like it should spread easliy) 2. Will the smoke from the fire drift in the wind? (The way I see it, the smoke should drift with the direction the wind in blowing. The longer the scenario goes on, the further the smoke drifts. Will this happen in CM?) 3. Will CM graphically represent that hazy/foggy effect from the smoke? (I watched a house burn down on my street once. The entire neighborhood was enveloped in an eerie haze.) Don't mean to be so pushy for answers, but I am having a hard time visualizing the smoke and fire in CM. Maybe I should shut up until next week when the screenshots come out....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted May 3, 1999 Share Posted May 3, 1999 There was a discussion about flamethrowers vs tanks on the TacOps list last week. IIRC someone said that flamethrowers weren't expected to take out a tank on their own, but to make life rather uncomfortable for the crew while some other unlucky sod got the privilege of sticking a demo charge into an approriate place on/under the tank. This was news to me. Has anyone else heard/read similar? In any case, how exactly do flamethrowers work on tanks in CM? Immobilise, or big boomey type stuff, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rhet Schmidt Posted May 4, 1999 Share Posted May 4, 1999 Brian, I have never heard of using a FT to distract an AFV while another soldier placed a demo charge on the AFV in question. I think this tactic is dubious at best. If the FT is engaging the tank then no one in their right mind is going any where near that tank let alone carring explosives. If an infantry unit was engaging a tank with a demo charge or AT mine sop was to throw it onto or under the tank. Tanks of WWII were not the hermetically sealed vehicles that they are today. Vision slits access ports and ventilators were all susceptable to FT attacks. Basically the ignited fuel mixture entered the vehicle through these points and caused havoc with the tanks crew. It is not just the flames themselves that injure but the extreme heat burns eyes and lungs very quickly and easily. Even brief close range attacks could disable the tank. Damage to running gear is possible but improbable. Finally, detonation of ammo is also improbable if the ammo was undamaged and/or stowed properly (even for open toped AFVs). It takes much more than a quick blast of flames for the ammo to cook off. ------------------ Rhet [This message has been edited by Rhet Schmidt (edited 05-03-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 4, 1999 Share Posted May 4, 1999 BDW, sorry, CM does not simulate wind. Besides smoke and noise dynamics, wind has little effect on combat, so we skipped it. Far too hard to simulate because you have to simulate all of the physics associated with it. And that is a simulation all on its own Smoke is not simulated 100% in the real world sense either. Like wind, there are lots of physics involved. Smoke filled that street you mentioned because buildings and atmospheric (i.e. air pressure, wind, temp, etc.) conditions made it happen that way. On a different day it might have done something totally different. I've seen big fires where all the smoke went straight up, while a car fire in the wide open blanketed the highway with smoke. Crazy world we live in, eh? So our smoke is abstract out of necesity. Columns of smoke rise up from burning areas, the width of which depends on the size and type of the fire. It is not 100% realistic, but it works well and didn't cause us to delay the game by a few months We think most people will be glad to simply have smoke simulated at all, as most games don't even do what we are doing. Flamethrowers as a nasty distraction, not the cause of a kill? I don't buy it. The heat alone could knock out systems and perhaps even cause the crew to suffocate (tanks have poor ventilation as is, all they need is some burning diesel fuel around their air intakes!). It would also likely destroy optics and other key parts. Also, it could ignite the lubrication oil of the turret ring. Touch off ammo or fuel, and boom. So, again, I don't buy it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 4, 1999 Share Posted May 4, 1999 Steve, that makes sense about the wind. Maybe one day when computers are faster...? Re: flamethrowers: Another point: how totally unsatisfying would it be to sneak up on a tank, bathe it in liquid flame, then have it shoot you down! What a let-down, considering how difficult it will probably be to even get your flamethower guy close to the tank. You'll probably have to hide and wait for a tank to drive by. So, I agree with you Steve - for completely untechinical reasons - that flamethrowers should be more than a "distraction". I just want to be able to torch tanks effectively! I don't even care if it is realistic or not - it will be FUN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 4, 1999 Author Share Posted May 4, 1999 During a tank museum visit several years ago, the guide (which looked like an old WW2 veteran himself) said something like that: "The ventilation slits in a WW2 tank are sucking air like a vaccum cleaner..." He went on to explain that tanks even hated to stay around smoke too long because the inside would become foggy after a few minutes... Can you imagine what would happen if a REALLY HOT mixture of gasoline comes close to these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 4, 1999 Share Posted May 4, 1999 A molotov cocktail works by spreading burning liquid around the air intakes around the engine. This burning liquid is then sucked into the engine compartment which is then destroyed., Frequently the combination of fire on the hull and fire in the engine compartment is enough to suffocate the crew very quickly also. A flamethrower is NASTY. It can get fire into ventilation slits, eat up the oxygen, cause sympathetic detonations etc.. It can definitely imobilise or kill a tank BUT getting it into position is a bitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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