tgra Posted October 21, 1999 Share Posted October 21, 1999 Is it possible to order a unit (probably infantry) not to engage? Imagine I'm proceeding along a road. Infantry on both sides checking the woods in front of the armour. A rifle squad notices an enemy MG and Bazooka team (maybe more) hidden in the woods. The opponent is waiting for the armour and has been told not to open up until they have a good target. The infantry could engage or retreat Could they be ordered to 'pretend' they've not seen anything. The armour could be stopped (if they haven't wandered into the Ambush within the 60 seconds) and the infantry asked to flank the ambush while other units are positioned from the main column. Other than 'is it possible', is it a tactic ever used? Is it sound or am I likely to get pasted? Obviously the infantry will be a little 'cut-off' and could run in to more trouble. Cheers Tony (P.S. this is another reason why I can't wait for CM. If it is as accurate as predicted then 'what ifs?' become 'aahhh that's what happens') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 21, 1999 Share Posted October 21, 1999 I'm sure it was used a few times, but not enough to simulate. Generally nobody likes to roll the dice like that I mean, you don't know a) that the ememy isn't about to kill you and that the enemy isn't about to kill you I listed this twice because I think it is all that is going through the soldier's mind at that point. "If I can see him, and he can see me, and I can shoot him, that means he can shoot me" I know what I would do, either fire or get out of there Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 21, 1999 Share Posted October 21, 1999 Aye I don't think too many soldiers would respect an officer who believed that pretending not to see an ambush as you closed on it was a good idea. Remember, he might think the enemy was set to ambush at 20 metres but they were set to ambush at 40 metres so just before HE is ready to give you the order to open fire the enemy ambush begins and you all die. Short career. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgra Posted October 22, 1999 Author Share Posted October 22, 1999 Can you give me some idea what should happen in this level of gameplay. Most of my wargaming has revolved around squad level (i.e. individual) where the point man would move back whether he was seen or unseen (just at a different pace I'd suspect) while the rest of the squad provide cover. Would/should the infantry engage or retreat? I realise it'll depend on cover and number of enemy. I just get the feeling a 12 man rifle squad would be cut to ribbons within seconds against an MG42 and pinned. I could be wrong. This is another reason why I'm looking forward to CM. I'm not a grog but love wargames. I'm expecting CM to make it a pleasure to lose while I get to learn something. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Well, at the heart of this problem is the eternal example given for the effectiveness of flank attacks. 1 man can re-orient 90 degrees in 1 second. 1 platoon can do it in a couple of minutes. 1 battalion takes an hour or two at least. A division takes a day or more And an Army is dealing with a week or more. The timescales involved with actions modelled at the individual level are very different to those involved with actions modelled at the squad level. If you see ten men advancing on your position suddenly stop and begin retreating quietly you figure the ambush is blown and blow them away. To my mind the first thing you should do when spotting an ambush is provide as large a volume of covering fire as is possible whilsthaving the units which were almost ambushed open fire. Depending on the strength of the ambush I would either continue the advance but close-assault the ambushing units (if I had significantly stronger forces in the VERY near vicinity of the ambush0 OR I would withdraw quickly to the nearest cover and add the squads fire to the supporting fire. I would rely on the supporting fire to attrit and suppress the enemy squad or platoon and then, when I'd had a chance to organise a platoon-sized assault force under command and control I would launch an assault with all the supporting fire I could muster. 12 men can pin an MG42 quite well if they start firing first.. Remember, ambushes occur at close range and it is the person who opens fire first who usually wins in an ambush situation. Usually that is the ambusher BUT IMO the instant you spot an ambush you should bring down all the fire you can and rush units to the spot. Ambush positions usually are ambush positions because they aren't strong enough to stop your forces in a fair fight. So, you accept the squad or so of casualties which are caused by you rushing into their lines once you see them and move up everything you can. THEN the boot is on the other foot and you should really be able to do some serious damage. Close combat in CM is very, very bloody and very, very terminal to everyone involved. I've seen 2 platoons which I had ambushing the AI from some woods near a road wiped out when the AI moved almost an entire company through the woods to my flank and simply marched right through my positions. I hurt them badly when they attacked since we were firinf at eachother from 5 to 20 metres distance which is simply slaughter range but they wiped out 2 platoons ( 1 platoon HQ and 1 MG got away) in under 80 seconds. (that's 1 of my men being killed per second.. very bloody.) Also, it was nice to see the AI working through forests out of my fields of fire to flank me... (the bastard ! ) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 12 men can pin an MG42 quite well if they start firing first.. When I was in the army I was thought that the correct thing to do when you meet the enemy unexpectedly is to fire a quick snap-shot at their general direction, hit the ground (actual order depending whether the enemy has opened fire), and only after that start considering the situation. The motivation for the snap-shot is that any counter fire will give the enemy men at least some thoughts about their own safety and may ruin their aim in the critical moments when your troops are most vulnerable. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Tommi, Yes, that's a very valid reaction. Actually one of my favourite reactions to ambush was relayed to me by a Singaporean buddy in college with me who was a sarge in the army and is as tough as you'd imagine. Basically the ambush drill in their army (presuming ambushes in jungle terrain and at very close range) was to simply turn towards the ambush and charge it tossing as many grenades and firing as rapidly as you possibly could. It was only when you had penetrated the enemy ambush line and were, preferably behind them by a few metres, that you were supposed to go to ground, I suppose the rationale is that it is better to act aggressively than be pinned in a killzone AND that if you get behind the enemy line then you probably have cut off their line of retreat and whatever friendly forces were behind you on the trail will move up and you can set up a crossfire. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 "Basically the ambush drill in their army (presuming ambushes in jungle terrain and at very close range) was to simply turn towards the ambush and charge it tossing as many grenades and firing as rapidly as you possibly could. It was only when you had penetrated the enemy ambush line and were, preferably behind them by a few metres, that you were supposed to go to ground, I suppose the rationale is that it is better to act aggressively than be pinned in a killzone AND that if you get behind the enemy line then you probably have cut off their line of retreat and whatever friendly forces were behind you on the trail will move up and you can set up a crossfire." Yes, this is true. I have read accounts from the Vietnam War both of the use of this tactic, and of what happened to units who failed to use this tactic. Basically, if you simply hit the dirt when ambushed, you've doomed yourself because you're surrounded on three sides by fire that is pre-set on your location, and you are giving the enemy time to close in on you. Charging an ambush will cause high losses, for sure, but fewer losses than if you sat still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Basically the ambush drill in their army (presuming ambushes in jungle terrain and at very close range) was to simply turn towards the ambush and charge it tossing as many grenades and firing as rapidly as you possibly could. It was only when you had penetrated the enemy ambush line and were, preferably behind them by a few metres, that you were supposed to go to ground,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Pretty much standard anti-ambush drill for the American army as well. The idea is to gain fire superiority on the ambusher and to get out of the ambush zone as fast as possible. You can't run away from an ambush without getting slaughtered so the only viable direction is toward the enemy. Of course a smart enemy knows this and will set up their ambush to make this difficult to pull off, but it will work well against the sort of hasty ambushes you will probably see quite often in CM. The other thing to remember is that although this drill is easy to practice it is extremly difficult to execute. I expect that green troops and conscripts will be so shaken by an ambush that they will quite literally melt away. Regulars on up probably stand a good chance of successfully pulling this drill off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Harold is correct about how this plays out in CM. Some units will manage to get to cover or close with the enemy, but more often than not they either hit the dirt or go running away in Panic (poorer troops at least). Of course the degree of planning and support for an ambush has a lot to do with this too. Not all ambushes are created alike Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 23, 1999 Share Posted October 23, 1999 A friend of mine who was an NCO in the Rhodesian Army (when there was a Rhodesia) told me the "run throught the ambushers" tactic was SOP. Reckoned it saved his unit on a few occasions. So here's my question: in CM what happens if an infantry unit tries to move through an enemy infantry unit? Do they bounce, get stuck in hand-to-hand, or can they pass through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted October 23, 1999 Share Posted October 23, 1999 It seems this was the tactic used recently in East Timor whent he ausie troops and SAS (cpl of New Zealand guys in there too apparently. Our SAS get around! ) ..There were two injured UNIMET troops (one to the neck! lucky!) and then they charged and killed.. 3 militia. The ausie guy they talked to refered to their standard counter-ambush tactics etc etc.. and it was bassically said that charging the bad guys was the trick. interesting huh. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bishop Posted October 23, 1999 Share Posted October 23, 1999 If you have a squad riding a tank and there is a bazooka/panzerfaust waiting to ambush the tank, does having infantry riding the tank increase the chances of the ambush being seen? Does it make no difference what so ever? Was infantry (in WWII) riding tanks only done when there was no chance of enemy encounter? ------------------ "waiting" is hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 24, 1999 Share Posted October 24, 1999 I can answer your last question Billy: no. The infantry certainly weren't too keen to be on top of a tank when the shooting started, but they would ride tanks in areas where contact with the enemy was likely. The Soviets used tank-riding inf more aggressively, but that's a thread for CM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 24, 1999 Share Posted October 24, 1999 Brian, units can pass through each other. However, since each unit is generally 8-12 men, this is a bit harder to do than at least the examples given here. I have seen it happen in the game, for sure, but generally there is a forced result. Either one or the other side tends to pack it in. Yeah, troops didn't like being on tanks because they were more exposed to small arms fire (aim for the big green/yellow thing with lumps on it!) and of course any type of shell fire. But riding with infantry DOES increase the chance of spotting as tanks generally aren't too good at this when buttoned up. However, walking your infantry INFRONT of your tanks is the best thing to do for both infantry and tank. The Germans used tanks as transport very heavily as well, even though it was against regs IIRC. I know it was against US regs, but they did it pretty frequently. Main reason for the German Army was lack of transport. For the US Army it was fear of PFs I suppose, and also there often was a tactical shortage of transport (i.e. for a given location at a given time, not theater wide). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted October 25, 1999 Share Posted October 25, 1999 To answer tgra's original question: I think crack and up troops would be able pull something like that off, even though I wouldn't recommend it. When troops see ambush, they tend to think "oh crap not again" and start to do one of three things: a) Run around that their privates have been shot off. Perform some counter-ambush technique to try and break up the ambush. c) Refer back to A. ------------------ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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