Tanks choice of weapons

[rocketman]

I have a hunch, that I can't prove, but something I've noticed over the most recent scenarios I've played. Most of the time I give my units target orders. If I do that with tanks, they usually fire HE at infantry units. But it seems to me, that if I don't give the target order, it fires MG only at infantry, even though it still has HE shells. Is there some reason behind this? Is it more than a hunch? Unfortunately I have no saves to prove my point, but it is something I have noticed frequently.

[George MC]

Target Vs Target light (Target light = MG only)

[rocketman]

In the example above, when I manually give order to fire I use target, but when not actively giving order the tank uses the light version. Why?

[dieseltaylor]

MG more effective than a shell for area fire. There is only so much HE so why waste it.

[Boche]

What pisses me off is Tanks firing off all their HE at 1 soldier running through a field and missing most of the time...

This happened in KG Engel campaign, where my tanks destroyed incoming tank after tank and then fired off all their HE at the crews that kept advancing.

I then found myself in the next mission to assault a town with almost no HE...

[rocketman]

MG more effective than a shell for area fire. There is only so much HE so why waste it.

I find it is rather useful against groups of men. If no target order is given it should fire HE at groups of bunched up infantry and MG against ones on their own.

[womble]

I have a hunch, that I can't prove, but something I've noticed over the most recent scenarios I've played. Most of the time I give my units target orders. If I do that with tanks, they usually fire HE at infantry units. But it seems to me, that if I don't give the target order, it fires MG only at infantry, even though it still has HE shells. Is there some reason behind this? Is it more than a hunch? Unfortunately I have no saves to prove my point, but it is something I have noticed frequently.

I think you're seeing what you think you ought to see. Nothing wrong with that, it's just observer bias. I see precisely the opposite. I give Target Light orders because I want some HE left for the next scenario/situation, and if I don't, the stupid Commanders piss away all the HE that's needed for winkling infantry out of hard cover on single, broken, fleeing Tank Crew 500m away. I've seen this behaviour with American and German (no CW yet) and light, medium and heavy tubes.

[Amizaur]

I have also an impression that tank commanders are a bit too "HE happy" when engaging single soldiers. Sometimes I could swear a tank unleashes a HE every time it possibly can , even against a single crewman in open field 30m away.

Sure, if there was a group of soldiers, an MG, a stronghold, infantry in building - he should use HE. But against single soldiers, or even small groups in open terrain - it could and should use only it's MG very effectively.

I believe that historically tanks used mainly MG fire against infantry, reserving HE for more difficult targets - like strongholds, prepared positions, MG, AT-Guns, buildings, or large groups of infantry. Everything else was preferably engaged with - very effective because of optics and great protection for gunner - MG fire. It's mentioned in Tiger Fibel IIRC to save the more expensive HE rounds and use the cheaper MG rounds for soft targets.

[John Kettler]

Amizaur,

You are correct! See last page here. I know just enough German to see that what's being talked about here is the cost of MG ammo vs. HE, together with a recommendation to use HE (Sprenggranate) only when absolutely necessary. http://www.scribd.com/doc/29619521/Tigerfibel-German-Tiger-Tank-Manual

Here's a closeup of the page http://paijmans.net/Tanks/Tigerfibel/91.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[rocketman]

IRL, did the tank commander always give orders to fire the main gun (and choice of target) while the MGs could be used by the crew at will (unlike the main gun)?

If the commander is killed, maybe the crew only use MG unless the player "becomes the commander" and gives a direct TARGET order, in which case HE is used.

Maybe the instances I remember are from tanks with its commander KIA.

[Ranger33]

It's bad when tanks use HE on infantry and you wanted to save it. It's worse when AT guns use their last three AP rounds on a lone soldier 400m away and you now have no means to destroy that Panther that just rolled up.

[womble]

Covered arcs can be of some use in curbing this profligacy with scarce ammo, but they don't always fit the tactical situation.

[Ranger33]

Covered arcs can be of some use in curbing this profligacy with scarce ammo, but they don't always fit the tactical situation.

Usually infantry will cross a location ahead of tanks, so using a covered arc doesn't really accomplish anything. In RT you can set a short arc and manually target armor as it comes into view, but in PBEM you have to cross your fingers and hope the target will be visible at the end of a turn. Otherwise you set the arc and just hope the gun waits for the desired target and doesn't give itself away by firing too soon.

If the Bulge game doesn't have an armor cover arc this forum might very well implode.

[womble]

Usually infantry will cross a location ahead of tanks, so using a covered arc doesn't really accomplish anything.

At the beginning of an engagement, no. But once you've made junk of their tanks and infantry rides, and broken all their infantry so it and the crews are the only viable targets receding from LOS, chopping the cover arc to not include the fleeing irrelevancies can save you on wasted/overkill HE.

I didn't think people really needed it expanding from "...don't always fit the tactical situation." Most of the folk on here can think of examples for themselves.

[sburke]

At the beginning of an engagement, no. But once you've made junk of their tanks and infantry rides, and broken all their infantry so it and the crews are the only viable targets receding from LOS, chopping the cover arc to not include the fleeing irrelevancies can save you on wasted/overkill HE.

I didn't think people really needed it expanding from "...don't always fit the tactical situation." Most of the folk on here can think of examples for themselves.

I have been burned on covered arcs as well. Just ask JonS. They will not be the once size fits all fix I think their lack seems to make us feel (though that doesn't stop me from wanting an armored covered arc).

[Crushingleeek]

i think their utility is most appreciated when you don't want your tanks turning any-which way to engage a new target, but rather focus on a narrow front or if you are trying to stay hidden and setting up an ambush.

it really has no use in prioritizing targets; hence the cmx1ers with armored arcs are smiling on their high horses

[sburke]

i think their utility is most appreciated when you don't want your tanks turning any-which way to engage a new target, but rather focus on a narrow front or if you are trying to stay hidden and setting up an ambush.

it really has no use in prioritizing targets; hence the cmx1ers with armored arcs are smiling on their high horses

Well I ended up taking multiple rounds from a pair of Churchills while my Tiger sat there with a covered arc that just missed including them. The better your unit, the more you have to worry about whether you want a covered arc or face command (I should have used face). An armored covered arc would have had the same effect.

[Crushingleeek]

Well I ended up taking multiple rounds from a pair of Churchills while my Tiger sat there with a covered arc that just missed including them. The better your unit, the more you have to worry about whether you want a covered arc or face command (I should have used face). An armored covered arc would have had the same effect.

(without knowing the specific situation) why did you limit the distance on your arc?

[sburke]

(without knowing the specific situation) why did you limit the distance on your arc?

It wasn't distance, it was the arc. I wanted to face toward where I thought the threat would come from and focus the turret in that direction (sort of a shoot and scoot set up.) However the Churchills appeared outside the arc and my veteran SS crew sat their saying, "but our orders are to only watch this area". My mistake, I should have used face and given them more flexibility. Not used to working with elite guys. My last big battle was with a bunch of worn out beat up Landser. You really need to understand your units to know which command it going to have what impact.

[Crushingleeek]

Not used to working with elite guys. My last big battle was with a bunch of worn out beat up Landser. You really need to understand your units to know which command it going to have what impact.

Do I understand you right, that less experienced/disciplined units might target outside their arc (presumably out of fear)?

[sburke]

Do I understand you right, that less experienced/disciplined units might target outside their arc (presumably out of fear)?

That has been my experience. The higher the discipline, the less likelihood they will countermand your orders.

[Crushingleeek]

cool. this is why i'm still playing. hope that guy vomits

[Vanir Ausf B]

I don't know if quality has an effect on a unit's willingness to abandon a covered arc order, but the motivation level is a huge factor. A "fanatic" unit will never disobey a covered arc.

[womble]

I don't know if quality has an effect on a unit's willingness to abandon a covered arc order, but the motivation level is a huge factor. A "fanatic" unit will never disobey a covered arc.

Ifni save us from Fanatics... I wonder if a higher experience unit (at less than Fanatic) is better at assessing the level of potential threats so it will break arc when it ought to, where a Green/conscript will hose off lead at anything that looks at it funny...

[John Kettler]

Attention, TIGER FIBEL fans! Pleae be advised the English translation has some horrible gaffes. The worst I've found is in the Tiger ! survivability section, where it says it survived 277 bazooka hits. That's 277 panzerbuchse hits, or 277 antitank rifle hits. Huge difference!

Regards,

John Kettler