Baffled once again by C2!!

[MisterMark]

I have elements of a light tank battalion:

1st battalion > A company > 1st platoon > subordinate elements - all with working radios.

At the beginning of the turn chain of command was solid all the way down. By the end of the turn 1st platoon was still in command with 1st battalion, but had a broken chain of command with A company... What is really strange is that none of my tanks moved throughout the whole turn or took any fire or buttoned up, etc. Also, 1st platoon is closer to A company than to 1st battalion!

Anyone have any idea why this is happening?

-Mark

[womble]

Radios are unreliable... They're easy to discommode at the CMBN stage of their development. It was probably a SNAFU by the radio op for 1Plt's tank's radio operator. Jogged a dial while pouring some tea out of his thermos (Nothing to do? Grab a brew. - the mantra of troops everywhere) or something and took a minute to get retuned in.

[dieseltaylor]

Womble - nice idea but really is it a good thing that in a game that dropping out of the radio net should be a feature when there is nothing going on? Realism gone mad? Fine in a simulator but fun in a game - I am not sure myself but others may differ.

[Bradley Dick]

I know movement sometimes causes people to fall out of radio contact. Are all of your C2 elements static for a turn or two?

[John1966]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was something in tht UI to indicate the radio isn't working?

[MisterMark]

I know movement sometimes causes people to fall out of radio contact. Are all of your C2 elements static for a turn or two?

The tanks I mentioned were all HQ's and yes they have been static for a few turns. And like I said at the start of a turn all was fine, then in the middle of the turn the C2 status changed.

The only ones that have moved were some of the subordinate elements of 1st platoon... but once again no movement from 1st platoon HQ, A company HQ, or 1st battalion HQ.

I'll have to see if C2 gets restored in subsequent turns. If so then I suppose Womble is on to something.

-Mark

[YankeeDog]

Yes; radio C2 links in CMBN can and do occasionally fail for no particular reason. This is realistic; bear in mind we're talking about WWII-era vacuum-tube and crystal radio sets here. The tubes can overheat or break. The tuning can drift. Any of a variety of types of interference can temporarily obscure the signal -- none of the modern electronics signal processing circuit boards exist to help maintain a clear signal when crosstalk or atmospheric conditions create interference. Also, smaller WWII-era radios had a hard time sending a signal through certain types of obstructions, so if the units are in a position where direct LOS can't be drawn between the tips of the two radio antennae, intervening terrain like heavy building or earth can weaken or block the signal. This is technically true of all radio-based comms, but modern systems are much better at dealing with it.

So, yes; it's realistic. Just like a spotting round falling hundreds of meters off target and wiping out you Bn. HQ is realistic, and just like how an AP round bouncing off a tank and landing on a truck full of infantry is realistic.

It's war. Sh*t happens. This level of realism may or may not be to your liking, but this is the level of realism that BFC has built into the game.

I'm fine with it, but I do agree that some sort of indication that the radio link is down for temporary technical reasons, rather than actual damage or loss of personnel, would be nice. Save me time hunting through the UI to make sure the unit didn't take damage/casualties that I was unaware of.

[sburke]

I'm fine with it, but I do agree that some sort of indication that the radio link is down for temporary technical reasons, rather than actual damage or loss of personnel, would be nice. Save me time hunting through the UI to make sure the unit didn't take damage/casualties that I was unaware of.

How about a wav file? "Goddamn piece of s**t! (sound of hand smacking side of unit) the radio is out again! (more banging on radio) Gimme that screwdriver!"

While we are at it, when the Bn XO section shows up, some grumbling about REMFs from the line units...

[stoex]

Doesn't the radio icon in the appropriate C2 status box go away when the unit's radio currently isn't working? I know it does that for infantry, like when they are moving.

[YankeeDog]

Doesn't the radio icon in the appropriate C2 status box go away when the unit's radio currently isn't working? I know it does that for infantry, like when they are moving.

Yes, but this doesn't tell you *why* you don't have radio comms. Could be because the unit is moving. Could be that the radio has actually been damaged by enemy fire. Could also be that the radio operator is dead. Or it could be just a temporary loss of signal. Only way you can determine if it's the last is to hunt through the UI and examine what the unit is doing, until you've eliminated all the other possible causes. Kind of a PITA.

[John1966]

Doesn't the radio icon in the appropriate C2 status box go away when the unit's radio currently isn't working? I know it does that for infantry, like when they are moving.

Is that right? Well that means I didn't really get to the bottom of that C2 oddity I was experiencing a few months ago...

[dieseltaylor]

Yes; radio C2 links in CMBN can and do occasionally fail for no particular reason. This is realistic; bear in mind we're talking about WWII-era vacuum-tube and crystal radio sets here. The tubes can overheat or break.

YD

In the first example you give does that mean in game the unit would be off air until such time as the radio was mended?

[womble]

YD

In the first example you give does that mean in game the unit would be off air until such time as the radio was mended?

Radio operators were trained to change broken tubes and would carry (limited) spares. So "Yes, but that time could be in the order of minutes."

[YankeeDog]

Ya, swapping out a vacuum tube isn't all that much more difficult than changing a light bulb, so it's definitely something that could be done in the field in a minute or two.

[Lt Belenko]

How about a wav file? "Goddamn piece of s**t! (sound of hand smacking side of unit) the radio is out again! (more banging on radio) Gimme that screwdriver!"

...

wav file not needed. This is what I do when I take excessive casualties. Except I smack side of computer and say Gimme that sledge hammer.

[MisterMark]

UPDATE... Looks like after about 30 seconds into the last turn C2 was in fact restored so I guess it's safe to safe that Battlefront has modeled some some interesting details into the game! Agree that it would be nice to have some sort of more obvious indicator when this happens.

-Mark

[dieseltaylor]

http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/usrads.html

Interesting

[YankeeDog]

http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/usrads.html

Interesting

Ya; that's a pretty good overview of U.S. tank radios. Gives a pretty good appreciation of how complex they were to operate, and why it was a definite advantage to have a dedicated radio operator in an AFV.

Particularly relevant to this discussion:

"All US radios contained delicate vacuum tubes that would die at what seemed the worst times. Vacuum tubes, also known as valves, are what receives the radio signals and amplifies them so they can be heard. In US vehicles in WWII, AFV crews were generally required to carry a complete set of replacement tubes. Most units were taught to replace all the tubes at once if one should fail because it was too difficult and time consuming in combat to search for the one tube that had gone bad. "

I would note that the "US" at the beginning of this passage is actually unnecessary; AFAIK all WWII-era military radios of all combatants used vacuum tubes; radios using solid-state transistor and semiconductor electronics didn't really become a practical reality until the mid-1950s.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

It occurs to me that it BFC have modelled the unreliability of radios why haven't they also modelled the unreliability of machineguns with respect to jams? Seems an odd priority choice.

Regards

KR

[womble]

I wonder if it's a decision to improve "game play" over realism. An MG jamming could well cause serious problems, but a radio going out for a minute isn't going to, not directly, especially since artillery FOing doesn't require a working radio to be effective.

[sburke]

Yes, but this doesn't tell you *why* you don't have radio comms. Could be because the unit is moving. Could be that the radio has actually been damaged by enemy fire. Could also be that the radio operator is dead. Or it could be just a temporary loss of signal. Only way you can determine if it's the last is to hunt through the UI and examine what the unit is doing, until you've eliminated all the other possible causes. Kind of a PITA.

How much hunting would you have to do? The panel showing the members of the tank crew will tell you

1 are they alive and uninjured

2 is the driver driving?

3 the panel next to them with one click will tell you if the radio is damaged.

So effectively with one mouse click I have eliminated the crew situation, movement and equipment state. Perhaps a UI could be developed that would eliminate the need for that one click, but I wouldn't characterize that as "hunting".

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I wonder if it's a decision to improve "game play" over realism. An MG jamming could well cause serious problems, but a radio going out for a minute isn't going to, not directly, especially since artillery FOing doesn't require a working radio to be effective.

I doubt that. BFC have always prided themselves over creating a realistic yet playable simulation of war with their Combat Mission series of games so I don't see why they would leave out machinegun jams (which were a pretty commonplace occurence, especially in the heat of battle) while including the rather esorteric problems associated with radios.

Seems a bloody odd set of priorities, that's all.

Regards

KR

[womble]

...I don't see why they would leave out machinegun jams (which were a pretty commonplace occurence, especially in the heat of battle)...

They were pretty commonplace in CMx1. So commonplace, IME, that they made H/MMG teams about 50% effective, including the chance of a jam being permanent. I struggle to see that this was a realistic representation. Got any sources for "pretty commonplace"?

[Vanir Ausf B]

They were common, yes, but they were never permanent and a 50% reduction in effectiveness is a bit of an exaggeration. They typically cleared in around 2 minutes or less, which would put the reduction at closer to 15%.

EDITED to add: Having said that, I'm ok with mg jams not being modeled for the simple reason that machine guns are perpetually under-modeled in CM already. The last thing they need is nerf. The same holds true with AT rockets not being allowed to fire from buildings: regardless of realism arguments, relaxing the rules on them would improve gameplay.

[womble]

They were common, yes, but they were never permanent and a 50% reduction in effectiveness is a bit of an exaggeration. They typically cleared in around 2 minutes or less, which would put the reduction at closer to 15%.

[shrug] Perhaps it's an outlier, but it was still overmodelled in CMx1. If it's brought back, there should be

a) differentiation between weapon systems

differentiation between "routine maintenance" stoppages (barrel, belt/drum changes and the like) and "malfunction" stoppages.

EDITED to add: Having said that, I'm ok with mg jams not being modeled for the simple reason that machine guns are perpetually under-modeled in CM already. The last thing they need is nerf.

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that myself, thanks for adding it.

The same holds true with AT rockets not being allowed to fire from buildings: regardless of realism arguments, relaxing the rules on them would improve gameplay.

Perhaps. It has a larger detrimental effect, certainly, when the game's environment tends towards the urban.