German vs, American grenades

[Vinnart]

Having a pretty tough fight in some dense woods at the moment as USA, and a lot of grenades are being thrown. I recently started using Vein’s newest explosion mod v.2, and without a doubt the “potatoe masher” shows a larger explosion radius, and does seem to cause more casualties than the American grenade. How did these two grenades rate in comparison in real life in regard to blast radius, and casualty effect? I know the German grenade has longer range because of the stick, but beyond that was there much difference?

From my experience I think the Germans are better in dense woods fighting than allied. I’ve taken the most casualties in this terrain not only to grenades, but also because the Germans have more automatic weapons, and more automatic ammo usually per squad.

[wokelly]

German stick grenade is mostly explosive and is an offensive grenade. US Grenade is a fragmentation grenade and has a larger lethal area. If the German stick grenade is inflicting more casualties that sounds wrong. Frag grenades are more lethal than blast grenades. The Germans did have frag grenades but they were egg shaped and carried in pouches so they were rarely seen compared to the stick grenades which had to be carried in the open.

[sburke]

That one may be tough to quantify. Are either sides units more bunched up, what is the slope like, is either side moving etc? Having been in a couple close range fights in Bois de Baugin I found them to be difficult battles and hard to assess what would work best. I have been on the winning and losing side of forest fights in that one and there seemed to be a lot of luck involved.

[Vanir Ausf B]

IIRC, US grenades were more powerful and German grenades could be thrown further.

[MikeyD]

I recall reading somewhere that German stick grenades were designed so the thrower can stay exposed after throwing his grenade, while US soldiers were compelled to take cover. A significant lethal radius difference. Unrelated, but I also read the waffle pattern on the US 'pineapple' doesn't really affect how it breaks up, but it does help the thrower keep a grip.

[dieseltaylor]

From the benefit of Mr Salt's work. Extracted information not all of which is readily comprehensible to me!

WO 291/472 Performance and handling of HE grenades.

A trial of grenade-throwing accuracy was conducted using the 36 grenade (Mills bomb), taking the average of 18 throws (3 throws by 6 men). The average errors, in feet, at different ranges were:

_______________15 yds 20 yds 30 yds 40 yds

Guards Range_____ 5_____11____ 14 ____12

____Line________________4 _____10 ____10

Devons Range – ___-______26 ____11 ___14

Line _____________– _____9 ______8____ 11

For stick grenades, "the stick does not seem to increase the maximum accurate throw, but it does prevent rolling". Average errors and length of roll, in feet, are given as:

________________Range Line Roll

Mills 36 ___________ 15_ 8__ 9

Time-fuzed stick ____ 8_ 8___3

Chances of incapacitation, at different distances from different grenades, are given as:

Distance--------- 36 grenade---- USA grenade ---------------German stick grenade

(feet) -----------------------Normal filling TNT filling ----------On base As thrown

3 ________________________________________________________-97%___ 83%

6 _________________________________________________________92%___ 75%

9 _________________________________________________________70% ___45%

10 _______________45%______ 20%______ 40%

20 _______________17% _______7% ______18%

30 _______________13% _______2%________10%

40 _______________10% ______0.5% _______5%

50 –

60 ________________3.0%

70 ________________1.4%

80_________________0.7%

The USA grenade was given an experimental TNT filling for these tests. Only one German grenade was available, so this was fragmented on its base and the results used to calculate the expected results "as thrown", the orientation of a thrown grenade being significant in affecting its burst pattern.

The 36 grenade, it is stated. "has a very irregular burst". The lethal area of the 36 grenade is given as 1550 sq ft on meadow land, and that of the USA grenade 350 sq ft. The lethal area of the 36 grenade is calculated as 2000 sq ft on perfectly flat ground, which would correspond to 1500 sq ft on normal ground. On perfectly smooth ground, incapacitation probabilities are stated as being 84% at 10 feet, falling to 14% at 30 feet.

Maximum throws, in yards, for different types of British grenade:

Grenade Standing Lying

70 _______33 ____31

71_______ 28 ____23

36 _______30 ____26

"The conclusions with regard to the 69 grenade were:–

(i) A direct hit would be lethal

(ii) Apart from the concussive effect and flying stones there seems to be little probability of injury

Length of throw, in yards, for British and US grenades:

A Standing behind cover

B In the open

C Crouching behind cover

D Lying in the open

British 36 A31 C21

US fragmentation A31 C21

British 69 B32 D26

US offensive B28 D26

Average length of throw, in yards, for different British grenades:

AGrenade Standing behind cover

BCrouching behind cover

C Lying

___A_B__C

70 29 24 23

71 25 22 22

36 30 25 24

69 26 23 24 (segmented jacket)

69 28 23 22 (plain jacket)

Screen test results giving percentage chance of incapacitation at different ranges:

Grenade 4 feet 8 feet 12 feet

70 85 39 20

71 98 63 36

36 73 29 14

69 (segmented jacket) 96 56 31

69 (plain jacket) 91 44 23

Finally, the average percentage chances of incapacitation at 10 to 20 feet are given as 33% for the 36 grenade, 25% for the US rifle grenade M9A1, an anti-tank grenade, but with good anti-personnel characteristics.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

All very interesting stuff. Inaccuracies in throwing, the benefit of not rolling, the lethality etc all very interesting. Note that these range experiments show up some inefficient grenades justifying the value of the work. Thanks to JD Salt for letting these War Office extracts become more widely known.

[Fußball]

The German model 24 and model 43 stick grenades could be thrown significantly further than non-stick grenade types due to the obvious lever. The stick also provided more control over where a grenade could be thrown, ie; accuracy, as well as keeping the grenade from rolling as much as an egg shaped or other non-stick grenade. Aside from the obvious advantage from the stick itself, it was an "offensive" grenade, meaning it relied solely on explosive power rather than fragmentation.

IIRC, US grenades were more powerful and German grenades could be thrown further.

Technically, the German stick grenade was more powerful. The StiGr 24/43 had 165g of TNT as compared to the American Mk.II's 2 ounces, roughly 56g, of TNT. However, the fragmentation of the Mk.II is what made the grenade deadly and was the mechanism relied upon to cause casualities.

The Germans did have frag grenades but they were egg shaped and carried in pouches so they were rarely seen compared to the stick grenades which had to be carried in the open.

Actually, the egg grenades (Eihandgranate m39) were "offensive" grenades as well. However, just like the model 24/43, there were fragmentation sleeves that were made to slide over the grenade itself. Though the fragmentation sleeves for the m39 weren't developed until late into 1944, the model 24 already had fragmentation sleeves from earlier on in the war. It's disputable whether or not the fragmentation sleeves worked as well as intended, but they were produced in quantity none the less. Nonetheless a fair amount of the model 39 was produced during the war, though much more uncommon in comparison to the iconic stick grenade.

[dieseltaylor]

This type of grenade, featuring a high explosive charge encased in a thin sheet steel can, is an example of an "offensive" (relying on blast effect), rather than "defensive" (fragmentation) grenade. A serrated fragmentation sleeve ("Splitterring") was adopted in 1942 which could be slid over the head of the grenade. Fragments of the sleeve would be scattered on detonation, making the grenade more effective against personnel.

The stick provided a lever, significantly improving the throwing distance. The Model 24 could be thrown approximately 30 yards (27 m) to 40 yards (37 m), whereas the British Mills bomb could only be thrown about 15 yards (14 m).[2] The design also minimized the risk of the grenade rolling downhill back towards the thrower when used in hilly terrain or in urban areas. However, the additional length of the handle meant that fewer could be carried.

The grenades were extremely useful for clearing out entrenched infantry positions. Although they were not individually very effective against armoured vehicles and fortifications, the grenade could be used in an improvised "bundle" style with another six explosive heads (without their sticks) wired around the central stick grenade. These were known as Geballte Ladung (literally "baled charge" or "concentrated charge").

Looks like a bit of duff info on Wkipedia! Time to edit : )

[Vark]

The German grenade also took longer to prepare, unscrewing a cap, and pulling a weighted cord, which once pulled meant the grenade had to be thrown. The Allied grenades had a more sophisticated priming system which meant once the pin was pulled the grenade was still safe if the lever, or spoon was still grasped, quite an advantage. Don't also forget the stick grenade was considerably more bulky and the ad-hoc stuffing into belts and into boot tops (few had the pioneer assault bags), due to their archaic webbing was also a disadvantage.

[Vinnart]

Thanks for the research, and replies guys. I knew it was the kind of question that the statistic grogs could sink their teeth into. In the scenario that prompted the question it could not have been more even. The German squad, and U.S. squad were running quick toward each other through dense woods. The Joes spotted the Gerrys first, and got the first grenade off getting one kill. They throw one more and get no kills. The Germans then spot my guys, and lob 2 grenades killing 3 troops. At this the rest of the American squad wets their pants and retreats, but as they do one more U.S. troops gets one more grenade thrown as they pull back getting no kills, or wounded. The bottom line is that the potatoe masher causes a larger explosion in the game as it sounds like it should from it being an offensive “explosive” type. Perhaps in reality the U.S. frag grenade was more effective because of the fragmentation, but my game experience shows that larger explosions seem to get more KIA’s. This being said I would say the German grenade is more powerful in the game from my experiences so far, and would rather be throwing than receiving them.

[dieseltaylor]

Funnily enough I was mulling the benefits and otherwise of the designs whilst half-asleep last night.

In woodland the round grenade should on balance be more effective as they are less likely to snag on branches than a stick grenade. I doubt this is modeled in game.

Methods of throwing are also interesting as underarm would be a logical way to throw a grenade through a doorway at medium distance.

The perceived disadvantage of rolling may in some circumstances be beneficial as it may be possible to roll it considerably more than 40 metres in 5 seconds. Say on tarred roads or downhill.

Just some stats:

Mills Bomb 765g. 95.2mm long diameter 61mm

Stick 595g 365mm [14inches] 70mm

Because cricket is/was a big sport here a cricket ball weighs 156g and has a diameter of 71mm.

I have a selection of boule and the largest is 700g and a 71mm diameter which I have to say is bordering on the uncomfortable to grip - possibly because it is not serrated unlike most boule.

PS Interesting site on military paraphenalia

http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/military.php

[womble]

Vinnart, you do realise that one encounter doesn't constitute an issue? If you've got a save game for the turn, try running it through half a dozen times. If it always comes out like that, it might be worth running it another 20 or more to check for luck, then there's a difference between the grenades.

[c3k]

Totally from memory, with all that entails, it seems that the German grenades caused a lot of minor - from a medical viewpoint - wounds. A lot of little pieces of metal. US caused fewer, but more significant, wounds.

Now, having said that, what is worse, one big piece of metal in you or 5 little pieces?

(Both took guys out of the fight. The German grenade seemed to be more survivable, although that could've been due to medical treatment differences.)

All the above from pure memory. Don't quote me.

Ken

[Vinnart]

Vinnart, you do realise that one encounter doesn't constitute an issue? If you've got a save game for the turn, try running it through half a dozen times. If it always comes out like that, it might be worth running it another 20 or more to check for luck, then there's a difference between the grenades.

I am not basing my opinion on the single incident, but from what my observations have been regarding grenade exchanges since playing the game. As I said I recently installed Veins newest explosion mod, which showed a graphic difference in the size of the explosions between the two types of grenades that I had not noticed before with the German grenade showing a larger explosion of the two grenades. With the results being as I described it got my curiosity up to know more about the differences between the two weapons.

I’ll check tonight if I have a save of that turn to run it a few more times to see the different outcomes. I usually play a couple of turns, and then do a save, so I may have a hard time getting to the exact run in between the forces.

[womble]

...I recently installed Veins newest explosion mod, which showed a graphic difference in the size of the explosions between the two types of grenades that I had not noticed before with the German grenade showing a larger explosion of the two grenades. With the results being as I described it got my curiosity up to know more about the differences between the two weapons.

Do mods generate explosion graphics based on some sort of in-game number? Or are they just pre-generated graphics associated with a specific event? Is the percieved size of the graphic skewing your assessment of generated damage (or have you recorded every grenade encounter you've ever seen (as opposed to just the ones where germans have gained the upper hand) and counted the differences - as well as eliminated any other environmental factors - do the germans usually have a personnel quality advantage, for example?).

You could do some tests and see whether it's a real effect or not, though they'd probably have to be short runs because in the conditions where grenades get used, the outcome will very rapidly start to get confused. Watching the first grenade attack would probably be all that could be useful for each runthrough.

I’ll check tonight if I have a save of that turn to run it a few more times to see the different outcomes. I usually play a couple of turns, and then do a save, so I may have a hard time getting to the exact run in between the forces.

Even then, it could just be that run-in: better troops or better condition or better conditions for spotting rolls. Or just more grenades...

I'm not saying one way or the other regarding any difference, just that so far you've not actually presented any real evidence.

[sburke]

Back in 1942 John "lightning" Williams an up and coming player being recruited for the Yankees was inducted into the draft. The Yankee's contention that the US gov't wasn't even a baseball team and was therefore ineligible for draft picks was unceremoniously tossed out of court. The young player ended up in Normandy with the 35th ID and participated in the Battle of Hamel Vallee.

We take you now to the Armed Forces Network transcripts of that day.....

Chris: man one thing you gotta say for those damn war bonds commercials, they certainly give you time to go take a .."

Jim: Whoa Chris, okay we're back on the air and a beautiful day here in the park at Hamel. Lightning Williams is up on the mound earnestly studying the plate apparently unruffled by the opponents taunting him over the size of his "grenades". He grips the spoon.... he's pulling the pin...... What do you think here Chris. Is this his kind of game?

Chris: Well you know Jim, lightning is known for his precision fastball, but looking at the hedgerow, I don't think that is going to help him today.

Jim: Yeah we've seen a few just bounce right off, this really isn't a fastball situation it would seem. oh, there goes the windup and it.. oh wait! That's no fast ball! What is that Chris?

Chris: Wow Jim, that looks like..wow, you know it's a little know fact that lightning used to play that game called I think umm what is it, oh yeah basketball.

Jim:Well whatever it is the guys in the field are going wild, but that doesn't look regulation to me, can we get a mike down there on the field and hear the refs ruling?

Talking head down on the field: Ref, ref, it seems the taunting from the opposing players has stopped, but are they going to call foul?

Ref:One moment we're trying to decide that (sticks head through hedgerow opening) eeewwwwwwwww Out!

The bouncing ball

what do you call this in cricket?

That's gonna leave a mark

[Broadsword56]

And that, my friends, is how the Santa Fe Division's finest take out a machinegun nest.

(Unfortunately, Williams didn't get to savor the moment very long -- most of that platoon got mortared and MG'ed from another hedgerow not long afterward, then hunted down by a Marder...but it's of these small victories that larger victories are made.)

[Vinnart]

Let me say I do not consider one grenade being more powerful, or not an issue. From what I have observed each explosion has an effective blast radius, which logically is represented in the algorithms of the game depending on caliber or amount of explosive. The higher the explosive amount the larger the explosion graphically. The larger the explosion, the larger the blast radius, or KIA/WIA zone. A number I assume represents this radius. Vein’s mod throws up more dirt so that the blast radius is easier seen. Here are some screens comparing this.This first shot is from a 105mm Sherman. The grid is 25m square for reference. I tried to capture the shot at the largest radius according to thrown dirt.

This particular grenade exchange is not the one mentioned first in the thread, but is a continuation of the skirmishes going on in the same woods. The first shot shows both sides grenades are thrown simultaneously, and cross paths in the air.

Here are the compared explosions graphically. I tried to capture each at the largest point graphically. The grid in the woods is smaller than on the grass in my terrain mod as I later resized my woods tiles to eliminate shimmer and is 12m square. This top shot is the allied grenade.

Here is German grenade explosion comparison.

[Vinnart]

This last series is a comparison of blast radius shown graphically by the dirt particles being thrown. Top Allied, bottom German.

[sburke]

One question. There is a modded graphic to depict the effect of a weapon. However is that depiction accurate, or just a depiction. Could I for example create a mod showing an even larger blast? I don't mod, so I have no idea. I just am not sure that the graphical representation of explosions actually has anything to do with the actual effect.

[Placebo]

From the benefit of Mr Salt's work. Extracted information not all of which is readily comprehensible to me!

WO 291/472 Performance and handling of HE grenades.

A trial of grenade-throwing accuracy was conducted using the 36 grenade (Mills bomb), taking the average of 18 throws (3 throws by 6 men). The average errors, in feet, at different ranges were:

_______________15 yds 20 yds 30 yds 40 yds

Guards Range_____ 5_____11____ 14 ____12

____Line________________4 _____10 ____10

Devons Range – ___-______26 ____11 ___14

Line _____________– _____9 ______8____ 11

For stick grenades, "the stick does not seem to increase the maximum accurate throw, but it does prevent rolling". Average errors and length of roll, in feet, are given as:

________________Range Line Roll

Mills 36 ___________ 15_ 8__ 9

Time-fuzed stick ____ 8_ 8___3

Chances of incapacitation, at different distances from different grenades, are given as:

Distance--------- 36 grenade---- USA grenade ---------------German stick grenade

(feet) -----------------------Normal filling TNT filling ----------On base As thrown

3 ________________________________________________________-97%___ 83%

6 _________________________________________________________92%___ 75%

9 _________________________________________________________70% ___45%

10 _______________45%______ 20%______ 40%

20 _______________17% _______7% ______18%

30 _______________13% _______2%________10%

40 _______________10% ______0.5% _______5%

50 –

60 ________________3.0%

70 ________________1.4%

80_________________0.7%

The USA grenade was given an experimental TNT filling for these tests. Only one German grenade was available, so this was fragmented on its base and the results used to calculate the expected results "as thrown", the orientation of a thrown grenade being significant in affecting its burst pattern.

The 36 grenade, it is stated. "has a very irregular burst". The lethal area of the 36 grenade is given as 1550 sq ft on meadow land, and that of the USA grenade 350 sq ft. The lethal area of the 36 grenade is calculated as 2000 sq ft on perfectly flat ground, which would correspond to 1500 sq ft on normal ground. On perfectly smooth ground, incapacitation probabilities are stated as being 84% at 10 feet, falling to 14% at 30 feet.

Maximum throws, in yards, for different types of British grenade:

Grenade Standing Lying

70 _______33 ____31

71_______ 28 ____23

36 _______30 ____26

"The conclusions with regard to the 69 grenade were:–

(i) A direct hit would be lethal

(ii) Apart from the concussive effect and flying stones there seems to be little probability of injury

Length of throw, in yards, for British and US grenades:

A Standing behind cover

B In the open

C Crouching behind cover

D Lying in the open

British 36 A31 C21

US fragmentation A31 C21

British 69 B32 D26

US offensive B28 D26

Average length of throw, in yards, for different British grenades:

AGrenade Standing behind cover

BCrouching behind cover

C Lying

___A_B__C

70 29 24 23

71 25 22 22

36 30 25 24

69 26 23 24 (segmented jacket)

69 28 23 22 (plain jacket)

Screen test results giving percentage chance of incapacitation at different ranges:

Grenade 4 feet 8 feet 12 feet

70 85 39 20

71 98 63 36

36 73 29 14

69 (segmented jacket) 96 56 31

69 (plain jacket) 91 44 23

Finally, the average percentage chances of incapacitation at 10 to 20 feet are given as 33% for the 36 grenade, 25% for the US rifle grenade M9A1, an anti-tank grenade, but with good anti-personnel characteristics.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

All very interesting stuff. Inaccuracies in throwing, the benefit of not rolling, the lethality etc all very interesting. Note that these range experiments show up some inefficient grenades justifying the value of the work. Thanks to JD Salt for letting these War Office extracts become more widely known.

I think the biggest danger of this grenade test is death by statistics

[dieseltaylor]

Funnily enough the question mentioned American grenades and I only have incidental data for those. If someone has US data for the same period that would be nice. But hardly necessary for the game

[YankeeDog]

I have the Office of Ordnance "Terminal Ballistic Data" publication from 1945, which includes data on the blast and fragmentation characteristics of a broad range of U.S. ordnance, including the Mk. II Hand Grenade -- avg. # of effective fragments, avg. velocity of fragments, avg. # of effective fragments per sq. ft. at a given range from the burst, etc. But it doesn't include equivalent figures for what you have above for the British and German grenades, such as throwing distance or estimated chances of incapacitation.

Let me know if you want, and I can post.

EDIT to add: I also have the August 1944 FM 23-30 in my web links, which is the relevant U.S. Field Training manual for hand grenades, among other things. Again, nothing as detailed as the above figures on British and German grenades, but this quote regarding training standards for grenade throwing may be useful: "35 yards is considered a good range after training has progressed. A 50-yard range is above average."

[dieseltaylor]

Thanks for the info. My boule at 700g makes me appreciate that they do require considerable effort to throw far. I have just checked the US MkII and that is 595 grams so a fair percentage lighter than the Mills bomb at 765 grams. Curiously it is hard to find the MkII dimensions.

You are right about the Ballistics side .. : )

PS a site that quotes 3 5/8 by 2 5/16 which I make 111mm by 59mm. Lets hoope the site was accurate! *OOps and darn new site as below shows 4.5"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appe.htm

Just some stats:

Mills Bomb 765g. 95.2mm long diameter 61mm

Stick ____595g _365mm [14inches]___ 70mm

MkII _____595g 92* or 114___________59mm

PPS another find

ADOPT THE STANDING POSITION.

....

4 STANDARD

Must throw a grenade into a circle 6 metres (20

ft) in diameter when standing 20 metres (65 feet)

away from the centre of the circle.

B COMMAND

ADOPT KNEELING POSITION.

.......

4 STANDARD

Must throw a grenade into a circle 6 metres (20

ft) in diameter when standing 15 metres (50 ft)

away from the centre of the circle.

C COMMAND

ADOPT MODIFIED KNEELING POSITION.

.......

3 STANDARD

As in cheek "B" above.

.

http://www.freepyroinfo.com/Pyrotechnic/Pyrotechnic_Books/Canadian_Forces_B_Gl_385_007_Pt_001_Grenades_and_Pyrotechnics.pdf

[YankeeDog]

Curiously it is hard to find the MkII dimensions.

FM 23-30 says the Mk. II is "...about the size of a large lemon." Helpful?