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The Battle for Hamel Vallee - an AAR


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A couple OOB questions here:

1.) You state --> 518 Battalion/Grenadier-Regiment 916/352nd Infantry Division

I'm not a Heer TOE/nomenclature guru, but I didn't think that Infanterie Btl. were individually numbered like this. A few Google searches later I see this unit must be Schnelle-Abteilung 518 which was a bicycle equipped reserve training unit.

In reaction to the D-Day landings, it looks like this formation originally had to bicycle from Cérences to Bayeux a modern road distance of ~ 75km/46 miles.

I imagine the units of Schnelle-Brigade 30 (Abt. 513,517,518) were notably less experienced and effective than the organic elements of 352 Infanterie-Division on June 6. However, by July 16, anybody left would be a grizzled combat vet!

Was Schnelle-Abteilung 518 formally subordinated to Grenadier-Regiment 916?

2.) What unit did the American armor come from? What a devastating morning for these boys...

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A couple OOB questions here:

1.) You state --> 518 Battalion/Grenadier-Regiment 916/352nd Infantry Division

I'm not a Heer TOE/nomenclature guru, but I didn't think that Infanterie Btl. were individually numbered like this. A few Google searches later I see this unit must be Schnelle-Abteilung 518 which was a bicycle equipped reserve training unit.

In reaction to the D-Day landings, it looks like this formation originally had to bicycle from Cérences to Bayeux a modern road distance of ~ 75km/46 miles.

I imagine the units of Schnelle-Brigade 30 (Abt. 513,517,518) were notably less experienced and effective than the organic elements of 352 Infanterie-Division on June 6. However, by July 16, anybody left would be a grizzled combat vet!

Was Schnelle-Abteilung 518 formally subordinated to Grenadier-Regiment 916?

2.) What unit did the American armor come from? What a devastating morning for these boys...

Keep in mind it is a board game OoB and the battle sequence after the first turn is decidedly ahistorical even if the overall feel of the battle is very much along the lines of what happened.

According to Normandiefront, Schnell bde 30 was subordinated to 352nd ID as were a host of other units considering the divisional staff of 352nd ID had shown itself capable and had some proven commanders.

In addition to attachments prior to June 6th, the division would be supplemented by KG Heintz I and II Bn GR 984

1 Company Pioneer BN 275

III BN art reg 275

GR reg 897 Oberst Bohm

GR 943

Flk reg 1

flk reg 15

flk reg 32

falschirmflak reg 2

art abteilung Autun

Cadre of art NCO school of 7th armee

one eisenbahn art abteilung

landesbau pioneer bn 17

elements of 17th SS PGD

They also absorbed units in the area from the kriegsmarine, RAD units, labour detachments, Art Reg 1716 and any soldiers on leave in their sector

Not exactly a roster to inspire unit cohesion and yet they performed well despite all that. They simply bled to death as a unit faced with the inability of the German command to alter either the Strategic or Operational situation.

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I don't have the official in-game victory screen handy, but here's the final tally from the Excel file I used to keep track of my US forces during the game:

<snip>

I am curious how did you track those numbers. Clearly you were tracking it as the game progressed because you mentioned your % casualties number as you were forming up your final attack plan. Did you keep a tab as you watched the turn and saw guys getting hit or did you check the status of each unit at the end of the turn? I was just wondering about the logistics of keeping count of the number of soldiers in each company.

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I am curious how did you track those numbers. Clearly you were tracking it as the game progressed because you mentioned your % casualties number as you were forming up your final attack plan. Did you keep a tab as you watched the turn and saw guys getting hit or did you check the status of each unit at the end of the turn? I was just wondering about the logistics of keeping count of the number of soldiers in each company.

I'd watch each turn's replay several times for fun and insight, then one final time I'd zoom way out with the icons turned on, and watch for flashes of red. Whenever I saw one, I'd pause the replay and zoom in to see the actual KIA/WIA and enter it in the appropriate place on my Excel table. Works fine -- not in 100% agreement with the game's tally, but close enough. (And I think the game adjusts casualties anyway depending on who received medical attention.)

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Interesting and sad article Broadsword came across today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1463860/German-soldier-buried-60-years-after-dying-in-battle.html

Alfred Gartner, a German paratrooper, was killed on a summer's day fighting in the fields of Normandy. Yesterday, in a simple and moving ceremony at the German military cemetery at La Cambe, which lies squarely in the middle of Utah and Omaha beaches, he was buried.

His body, or what little remained of it, was found by a farmer only last week in one of the traditional bocage hedges that define the lanes and fields of Normandy. A cow grazing in a field at La Luzerne, north-east of St Lo, blundered into the hedge and dislodged the bones that had lain there undisturbed since 1944. Part of the skull, a bone from an arm and some ribs were found alongside tunic buttons and a rusting pistol.

Also found were Alfred's dog tags, containing the date of his mobilisation, which allowed the Deutsche Dienststelle, custodian of the military records of 18 million German soldiers from the two world wars, to identify him. He was part of the 6th Parachute Regiment reformed in January 1944 and sent to help to beat off the threat of invasion on the north French coastline.

Records show that he was killed by an enemy grenade as his unit fought unsuccessfully to stop the American infantry advance towards St Lo, which they finally took on July 18, 1944. It is thought the force of the exploding grenade blew him into the bocage - ancient, shoulder-high hedges which provided perfect cover for the entrenched Germans as the Allies pushed inland from the Normandy beaches.

Infantry troops had to fight their way forward field by field and even tanks found it hard to make progress through the bocage. His remains were brought to the German cemetery, which is alongside the main N17 route from Bayeux to Isigny sur Mer, not far from the Omaha beach site where the Americans sustained 3,000 casualties as they came ashore on D-Day. Of 225 Rangers who landed to take the strategically important battery at Pointe du Hoc, only 90 were left standing 36 hours later. The casualty rate of 68 per cent was D-Day's highest.

The cemetery was created by the American war graves commission as an emergency burial ground for Americans and Germans killed in action. After 1945, the American dead were reburied further along the coast at Laurent-sur-Mer and La Cambe was taken over by the German war graves commission. One of the biggest provisional Second World War graves in France, it originally contained 8,000 dead but that number was increased to more than 21,000.

Yesterday, under a cobalt blue sky, Alfred Gartner joined his comrades who lie two to a grave under the immaculate oak- and beech-shaded lawns.

Finding a soldier's remains is not uncommon in Normandy, where cemeteries contain 177,000 soldiers, 80,000 of them German. Most lost their lives in the battles that raged across the Norman countryside between D-Day, June 6, and Aug 20, when German resistance ended in 1944. Last year, the remains of 12 soldiers were found. This year, so far, there have been three.

Alfred left behind in Germany a wife and a young son. His widow, frail and now in her 80s, has been told of the find as has his son, now in his 60s and approaching retirement, but neither could be present at yesterday's 25-minute ceremony.

An honour guard, fittingly of German paratroops, was present as his remains, in a small coffin with the German flag draped over it, was lowered into the grave, which he will share with Herman Sarr, 37, who was killed on July 15, 1944. A party of German veterans, old men with silver hair and walking sticks but smart on parade in black blazers and grey flannels, snapped to attention as the coffin was lowered.

Their senior officer, Alexander Uhlig, of the 6th Parachute Regiment, who was awarded the Knight Order of the King's Cross for his valour in Normandy, wiped away tears as a simple floral tribute, bedecked with a riband of black, red and gold, was laid at the graveside.

With a last salute from the paras, both old and new, the coffin was lowered. Eventually Alfred Gartner's name will be recorded on the plaque which covers the grave. For the time being it will say only: "Ein Deutscher Soldat."

Thank you so much for sharing, almost brought a tear to my eye.

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  • 3 months later...

Just read the AAR from start to finish, an excellent read and a great guide on tactics to a newbie such as myself.

Also, I'd like to add the operational layer to the campaign made it more compelling.

Can't wait for the next instalment.

P.S. Is there a link to the rules for the operational campaign ? a sneak under the hud to see how it works.

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Just read the AAR from start to finish, an excellent read and a great guide on tactics to a newbie such as myself.

Also, I'd like to add the operational layer to the campaign made it more compelling.

Can't wait for the next instalment.

P.S. Is there a link to the rules for the operational campaign ? a sneak under the hud to see how it works.

Broadsword56, you want to field this one? :D

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Is there a link to the rules for the operational campaign ? a sneak under the hud to see how it works.

Thanks so much for your interest, nathangun!

Since I so often get requests for these operational-tactical conversion rules, I'll just post them right here so people can cut and paste a copy to save, or be able to search for them and find this post in the future:

St. Lo – CMBN conversion rules

By Broadsword56

These rules formalize and facilitate the setup of Combat Mission:Battle for Normandy battle scenarios from combat situations in the board game Saint-Lo (West End Games, 1986), and vice-versa.

1.0 Fitness – The boardgame’s HQ morale level at the time of activation sets the starting “Fitness” level of the units entering battle as follows:

HQ Morale 6 or 7 = Fit

HQ Morale 4 or 5 = Weakened

HQ Morale 2 or 3 = Unfit

(Exception: Pinned or disrupted status affects fitness, see 6.0)

1.1 Battalion-level forces: Apply the overall Fitness level to 2 of the 3 companies. The third company is always one level higher than its fellow companies (simulating the fact that one company would have been in reserve and more rested than the others).

1.2 Company-level forces: apply the overall HQ Morale/Fitness level to both companies.

2.0 Experience levels

US 29th ID and 2nd ID = Veteran

US 35th ID = Green in first battle, then Regular second battle, then Veteran 3rd and subsequent battles.

German 352nd ID and FJ units and SS units = Veteran

3.0 Leadership levels

(Can be modified by Pinned or Disrupted status, see 6.0, and/or by prior casualties, see 7.3)

US units = default level 0

German units = default level +1

4.0 Motivation levels – Motivation levels in CMBN can be Fanatic, Extreme, High, Normal, Low, or Poor. The default motivation levels for units entering CMBN battles should be as follows (this may be modified by Pinned or Disrupted status, see 6.0; and/or by prior casualties, see 7.3):

US units – Normal

German 352nd ID - Normal

German FJ and SS – Fanatic

5.0 Supply levels – CMBN Range is Full, Adequate, Limited, Scarce, Severe.

Most of the supply effects are modeled at the op level by the boardgame’s LOC rules, which affect how much headquarters can do.

Default supply level for all units = Adequate.

5.1 Exception: Units whose HQ has no LOC at the start of the tactical action have the following effects entering a CMBN battle:

1st CMBN battle in this Op day/turn: Supply = Limited

2nd CMBN battle in this Op day/turn: Supply = Scarce

3rd and subsequent CMBN battles in this day/turn: Supply = Severe

6.0 Pinned or Disrupted states

Pins or Disruptions (that were caused by boardgame barrage, etc.) are modeled at the start of a CMBN tactical battle by applying some modifications in the unit editor to the "soft factors" of affected units.

6.1 Pinned: Units pinned in the boardgame start a CMBN battle with Fitness level one step lower than the normal level that would be determined by Rule 1.0. Their motivation level is set to Low.

6.2 Disrupted: This is a more severe state, and at that point there would have been effects on a unit's command-and-control due to leader casualties and shock, etc.

A disrupted unit starts a CMBN battle automatically with the lowered fitness level of Rule 6.1, plus "Poor" motivation, and -2 Leadership state.

6.3 At the end of a CMBN battle, tactical results would get translated back into the boardgame. So, depending on units' Motivation and Leadership levels at the end, they would re-enter the boardgame as Pinned or Disrupted or normal.

7.0 Unit strengths

7.1 Companies -- Company counters in the boardgame range from 1 to 4 points at initial strength, and represent approximately 100 to 200 men. So, for companies entering a CMBN battle, the units are purchased with reduced strength from CMBN’s standard TO&E levels as follows:

1 pt = 100 men = 50% reduction from TO&E

2 pts = 125 men = 30% reduction

3 pts = 175 men = 10% reduction

4 pts = 200 men = 0% reduction

7.2 Battalions -- Battalions in the boardgame range from 11 to 5 points at initial strength, and represent 400 to 800 men. So, for battalions entering battle:

11 pts = 800 men = 0% reduction

8 pts = 700 men = 10% reduction

9 pts = 600 men = 20% reduction

7 pts = 500 men = 30% reduction

5 pts = 400 men = 40% reduction

4 pts = 300 men = 50% reduction

7.3 Cohesion step losses and strengths

Combat losses have a greater effect on a unit’s ability to fight than just the loss of personnel. Each CMBN battle scenario imposes overall loss thresholds, representing the cohesion “breakpoint” for the type of mission the unit is doing. Losses are the total of KIA + WIA +POW.

7.3.1 Battalion breakpoints: At the end of CMBN battles, players check who occupies the objective, and whether any participating units should take a step loss. Based on the overall losses (KIA + WIA + POW), at the end of the battle, any battalion or company that lost over a certain percentage of personnel strength should go back into the boardgame with a step loss or other penalties, as follows:

7.3.1.1 Attacking battalions:

Each 40% in personnel losses per attacking battalion (average for the entire battalion at the end of a CMBN battle) triggers the following:

*1 step loss;

*Permanent reductions in leadership (1 level lower than standard);

*Permanent reduction in motivation (1 level lower than standard).

Attacking battalions that lose 33%-39% of personnel in a single battle suffer no step loss, but they do suffer the permanent reductions in leadership and motivation.

7.3.1.2 Defending battalions:

Each 80% casualties per defending battalion (average for the entire battalion at the end of a CMBN battle) triggers 1 step loss.

Defending battalions that lose 50-79% of personnel in a single battle suffer no step loss, but they do suffer the permanent reductions in leadership and motivation, as in 7.3.1.1.

7.3.2 Company and asset unit breakpoints:

7.3.2.1 Attacking companies and assets:

If total size of a player’s starting force was less than battalion, each 35% casualties per company or asset triggers one step loss (elimination) of that company or asset.

Attacking companies or assets that lose 26-34% of personnel in a single battle suffer no step loss, but they do suffer the permanent reductions in leadership and motivation (as in 7.3.1.1) long as they remain a separate company. [if they later “builds up” with its fellow companies to reconstitute its parent battalion, these penalties end and the company carries the ratings of its parent battalion.]

7.3.2.2 Defending companies and assets: If total size of a player’s starting force was less than battalion, each 70% casualties per company or asset triggers one step loss (elimination) of that company or asset.

Defending companies or assets that lose 50-69% of personnel in a single battle suffer no step loss, but they do suffer the permanent reductions in leadership and motivation (as in 7.3.1.1) as long as they remain a separate company. [if the company later “builds up” with its fellow companies to reconstitute its parent battalion, these penalties end and the company carries the ratings of its parent battalion.]

8.0 Objectives and scoring:

The CMBM scenarios will use two types of objectives: terrain (“occupy”), and enemy casualties.

8.1 Terrain objectives in the CMBN battles are areas within a zone of approximately 280 meters on a side, or less, which represent the target hex of the attack in the operational-level boardgame.

8.2 Casualty objectives in the CMBN battles are to inflict enough casualties on the enemy to exceed their step-loss threshold.

8.3 Each side plays the CMBN battle for 1000 victory points. Points are allocated as follows:

Attacker: Terrain objective (occupy) = 1000 points

Defender: Enemy casualties > 40% (if enemy is a battalion) or 35% (if enemy is a company) = 1000 points.

8.4 If the battle ends in a tie on points, the personnel loss percentage determines the outcome.

Example: A US company attacks a German company in a hasty attack in the boardgame. The resulting 60-minute scenario ends as follows:

Outcome example 1: US losses = 15%, German losses = 85%. Terrain objective ends in German hands. Result: Even though the Germans retained the objective in CMBN, their battle losses trigger a step-loss and elimination of the German unit in the boardgame. The US unit may advance after combat. The assumption here is that the German company put up a good fight, but lacks the strength to hold the objective and has ceased to be an effective combat unit for the rest of the 8-day period of the campaign.

Outcome example 2: The US company wins the objective in CMBN (1000 US points) but suffers 61 percent casualties (1000 German points). The German company suffers 50 percent casualties. In the conversion back to the boardgame, the US company is eliminated and the German company retains the objective.

Outcome example 3: The US company and the German company both suffer casualties in the CMBN battle that would trigger a step loss in the boardgame. Result: Both units are eliminated in the boardgame (an “exchange” result) and no one is in control of the objective hex.

Outcome example 4: Neither side loses enough casualties to trigger a step-loss (0 points for the defending Germans). The Germans, however , control the objective at the end (denying the US side its 1000 points). The US attack is considered to have failed, and the German company retains the objective hex in the boardgame. Unit strengths remain unchanged in the boardgame (simulating minor losses that could be filled in a short time with replacements, transferring troops from other companies, rallying stragglers, etc.)

The US player will usually be the attacker in this campaign. Historically, the US objective was to capture the city of St-Lo (a territorial objective). It didn’t matter to the success of the mission whether each German unit was destroyed or whether it simply retreated out of the way. On the other hand, the defending Germans’ primary objective was to inflict as much damage as possible on US troops and slow them down, then retreat back to the next line of hedgerows. The specific territory the Germans were fighting on was only of temporary, situational value to them. On the other hand, if the Germans launch a counterattack – say, to cover an open flank or recapture a crossroads – then the territory objective now matters more to them. That is why these rules give the attacker a territory objective and the defender an enemy casualty objective.

It took about 2 weeks time lag for reported casualties to result in replacement reaching a battalion (at least for the US) and that is beyond the scale of this 8-day campaign. So casualties are minimally replaced. For example, It’s been reported that by the end of the campaign, few of the active 29th ID battalions could muster more than a full-strength rifle company.

It might seem odd that these rules allow a battalion suffering 19 percent casualties in a CMBN battle to return to the boardgame with no step loss, while the same battalion suffering a 20 percent casualty rate in the battle loses a step. 1 percent is not that different, but some threshold needs to exist. The threshold represents a cohesion “breakpoint” for the unit as a result of intense combat. A unit that loses 10 men over the space of several days can regroup, promote new leaders, perhaps fill some holes with rear-echelon cooks and postal clerks. But a unit that loses 10 men in the space of an hour or two has had a shattering experience that may destroy the unit’s ability to continue fighting effectively.

9.0 Airstrikes.

Since St Lo has its own system for airstrikes, and they happen separately from battles, no need to do anything there -- they represent "operational level" or grand-tactical bombing, not the kind of direct tactical air support modeled in CMBN. But since St. Lo does model weather and its effect on airstrike availability, a US force in a CMBN battle can be set up to have on-call air support during the battle under the following rule:

9.1 If the weather state in the boardgame is "clear" that turn (there’s a 30% chance of this weather condition) and one or more US airstrikes are currently available in the boardgame, the US side may enter the CMBN battle with air support.

10.0 Artillery

10.1 Artillery forward observers and observation.

If an OP is placed on map in the boardgame for this combat and observation is successful, it is deployed in the CMBN scenario as follows:

10.11 If the OP is 2 hexes or less from the observed hex, it will be deployed with the combat units in their setup zone(s).

10.12 If the OP is 3-12 hexes from the observed hex, it deploys onto the CMBN map in its own location, corresponding to its location on the boardgame map.

10.2 On-call and defensive artillery in combat – Whatever artillery support units the players allocate in the precombat phases of the boardgame will participate in the CMBN battle as off-map artillery.

10.2.1 Fire intensity – the boardgame’s rules governing regular, rapid, and intensive fire for on-call artillery or defensive artillery in combat will apply to the CMBN battle as follows:

Normal fire (1 fire mission) = On-call artillery unit has “Limited” supply state. (all defensive fire artillery is restricted to at this level)

Rapid fire (2 fire missions) = On-call artillery unit has “Adequate” supply state.

Maximum fire (3 fire mission) On=call artillery unit has “Full” supply state.

10.3 Battleship artillery -- No battleship artillery in this game (it wasn’t available anymore by mid-July 1944).

11.0 Entrenchment, fortifications, and improved positions

11.1 Entrenching -- Any unit of either side that entrenches its position in the boardgame enters the CMBN battle with the following fortifications:

40 Foxholes

5 Barbed wire

10 mines (of any type)

11.2 A German unit that is in a boardgame hex already marked “improved position” enters a CMBN battle with the following fortifications:

Foxholes (battalion 40, company 10)

Wooden shelter bunkers (battalion 10, company 3)

10 Barbed wire

5 AP Mines

5 AT mines

10 Mixed Mines

20 TRPs (if on call or defensive artillery is available)

11.3 German strongpoint hexes would get all of the improved position fortifications above, plus:

6 wooden MG bunkers

10 trenches

10 Sandbag walls

30 more barbed wire

12.0 Attack modes

The St Lo boardgame makes important distinctions between "Hasty," "Deliberate" or "Intensive" attacks. The CRT results in Saint- Lo are much more severe, depending on the type of attack used. The attack modes will be represented in CMBN battles as follows:

12.1 Hasty attack:

12.1.1 Hasty attack battle time limit: 2 hours.

12.1.2 Hasty attack leadership levels: Units making hasty attack have no modifier to their default leadership levels (except for pinned or disrupted status, see 6.0).

12.2 Deliberate attack:

• Leadership levels: Units making deliberate attacks all add 1 to attacker standard leadership levels.

• Battle time limit is 3 hours.

12.3 Intensive attack: In an intensive attack, attacking units enter CMBN having all the benefits of deliberate attack, plus some extras:

• "Full" supply level

• Target Reference Points for artillery.

• Leadership: Add 2 to the attacker leadership level that would otherwise be in effect.

• Time limit: 4 hours

It would be important to think about what those types of attacks are simulating in the game. They represent a combination of command involvement and pre-planning, and preparation time; increased time and effort expended to get a good result.

A hasty attack is just "There's the enemy -- let's go get em!" It would happen immediately, many times a day, with no pre-planning, often on small units' own initiative. Meeting engagements would always be hasty attacks.

A deliberate attack means the unit hit some resistance, paused for a few hours or maybe even half a day, to formulate a better plan and call up the needed forces, issue orders, etc., and then attack. So it takes more time and involves higher command, and takes a bit more time.

An intensive attack means a real set-piece battle (preparatory rolling barrages, air strikes, an attack at dawn, with waves of reinforcements, etc.) Command involvement would be much higher-level and more direct. It would happen more often against strongpoints, or where the forces were more evenly matched.

11.0 Pre-battle Intel: Simulates amount of pre-planning and each side’s prebattle scouting of enemy positions.

11.1 Hasty attack: 1st attack on this objective hex this Operations Phase: 10% both sides, 2nd attack 20%, 3rd and subsequent 30%.

11.2 Deliberate attack: 1st attack 20% both sides, 2nd attack 30%, 3rd and subsequent attacks 40%

11.3 Intensive attack: 1st attack 30%, 2nd attack 40%, 3rd and subsequent attacks 50%

11.4 Modifier to all the above intel level rules: -10 percent for the attacker if the attacker moved into its attacking hex this Operations Phase, +10 percent if attacker was already in the hex from a previous Operations phase.

-----

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Thanks so much for your interest, nathangun!

Since I so often get requests for these operational-tactical conversion rules, I'll just post them right here so people can cut and paste a copy to save, or be able to search for them and find this post in the future:

-----

Thanks Broadsword56, I'll try to make use of these.

Just one more question.

I'm not familiar with the board game "Saint-Lo", what are the movement rates of units ?

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Thanks Broadsword56, I'll try to make use of these.

Just one more question.

I'm not familiar with the board game "Saint-Lo", what are the movement rates of units ?

Scale is 307 yards per hex (280 meters). Units normally get a 3 movement point allowance, and it can be 8 MPs for strategic movement. But a unit can activate a number of times in any given 2-hour turn, due to HQ morale and die rolls. So the beauty of the game is you never really know how much a given unit can do or how far it can move in any given turn.

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Scale is 307 yards per hex (280 meters). Units normally get a 3 movement point allowance, and it can be 8 MPs for strategic movement. But a unit can activate a number of times in any given 2-hour turn, due to HQ morale and die rolls. So the beauty of the game is you never really know how much a given unit can do or how far it can move in any given turn.

What I meant to ask did you give units a standard movement speeds ?

You might like this program, http://www.pawosoft.com/geccos/geccos_exe.zip

It helps to plot real time movement on a map, great for campaigns.

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No complaining here. ;) This is a "celebration of a great game" thread. We have had a month playing this game for this scenario and loved every minute of it. And just to set the record straight

You got it backwards. Scenario depot, the modders etal would have nothing to work on if it weren't for BFC and frankly I doubt BFC is at all dependent on us for their sales. I don't think we hurt sales (one does have to wonder sometimes) but with no data it is presumptive to think we somehow keep BFC hobbling along despite themselves. Sure we present a community to enjoy it together, but I was buying BFC products for years and never even visited the forum. I had all the CMx1 games and all of CMSF and posted once. It wasn't until CMBN came out that I got really involved on this forum and started checking out all the modder's material. If this AAR somehow does help sales, great. Personally I don't think it will as anyone who sees it is probably here because they bought it already. This was more intended to make the forum a nicer place for them to be, and maybe make folks feel like they could jump in here and not worry about if they knew the air speed velocity of an english sparrow tied to an APCR round and it's splatter effect.

We are just really thankful that a small team of folks understand what a very small niche community wants in a tactical wargame and tries their very best (which is damned good) to deliver. They put up with our bitchin and moanin and occasional good idea, they listen to the problems we uncover in the game, spend innumerable hours trying to nail down cause and effect and fix them without breaking everything else, many of them working for free. They tolerate us inquiring into their business model and telling them how they should run it despite us having no access whatsoever to their sales data (nor probably any experience running a business). They support us troubleshooting crappy PCs that we refuse to upgrade and insist they try and make a very computing intensive game run on 10 year old laptops. They teach us how to correct our anti virus programs to stop blocking the game instead of saying- "it is your anti virus software, go call their 800 number". They even put up with folks making negative comparisons of their products to their competitors on their own site. And just so I don't forget them, the crew of beta testers who take a ton of abuse that suggests they sit around doing nothing and how could they miss such an obviously glaring error that is totally ruining the game for me!!! I don't envy you guys, yeah you get to play the game first but geez talk about under appreciated.

I deal with a lot of vendors in my business and when I come across ones that obviously love their product and will take this much time assisting me with problems that aren't really theirs, I have to be impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the modding community. Well .. maybe like is more appropriate. They have me worrying about helmets now, God help me. But as much as I love Mord, Aris, Juju and EZs work (and Vein's and....), they didn't make the game good nor even great for me. They simply made it better. Without this game engine all the modding in the world wouldn't matter.

Yes BFC this AAR is for you. Thanks

So very, very well said. Kudos to you and Broadsword65!

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