womble Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Many of the .50 cals found their way onto Universal Carriers... Ooo. Any of those in the module? [drool] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Not really, but here are some pictures: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 You must have a hell of a photo archive wo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 The happy smile of another satisfied user. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 The happy smile of another satisfied user. Michael Brave, hearty lad! Renders one nostalgic for the pre-Multi-Culti Britain. Unless we have a Canadian here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 In her day, Ma Deuce has made many a man happy indeed...and a lot more, a lot less so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 In her day, Ma Deuce has made many a man happy indeed...and a lot more, a lot less so. In her day? Last I heard, Ma Deuce was still dishing out the happiness. In fact, ISTR that they've postponed her replacement, yet again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 In her day? Last I heard, Ma Deuce was still dishing out the happiness. In fact, ISTR that they've postponed her replacement, yet again. What would be an improvement on the M2 beast? I guess the befuddled look of troopers everywhere when asked that question is the reason why they've not replaced 'er yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLaurier Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Brave, hearty lad! Renders one nostalgic for the pre-Multi-Culti Britain. Unless we have a Canadian here. You do indeed have a Canadian here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 What would be an improvement on the M2 beast? I guess the befuddled look of troopers everywhere when asked that question is the reason why they've not replaced 'er yet. Generally speaking, the proposed replacements to the M2 I am aware of have focused on (a) reducing the weight and ( reducing the perceived recoil; with the overall general aim of making the 12.7mm MG class more practical as a man-portable weapons system. Additionally, at least one proposed replacement system I am aware of uses a modular receiver that can also accept an upper which fires the 40mm grenade, increasing flexibility by effectively allowing a unit to carry two weapons systems, for only about 150% the weight of one system. IMHO, these are all laudable improvements -- the M2 is a pretty remarkable weapons system but portability is definitely not its strong point so anything that can do what it does for less weight is great. However, given current defense budget limitations, I'm really not sure that replacing this tried and true weapon system is really the best use of taxpayer money right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 You must have a hell of a photo archive wo Haha, well if you mean google image, then yes, I have a hell of a photo archive 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakai007 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Since the fact the German's didn't have a heavy weapon of similar caliber to the M2, I have to wonder why they didn't develop one? I know they had the capability and a decent design. The MG131 was in wide spread use on aircraft, why not mount one on the roof of a PzIV or PzIII to give it more punch and penetration compared to the MG34. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Generally speaking, the proposed replacements to the M2 I am aware of have focused on (a) reducing the weight and ( reducing the perceived recoil; with the overall general aim of making the 12.7mm MG class more practical as a man-portable weapons system. Yeah, weight's an issue if you're lugging the thing round on your back, and there's only so far you can go (and keep it affordable in large numbers) by just replacing steel with modern alloys and composites etc in the same design. Additionally, at least one proposed replacement system I am aware of uses a modular receiver that can also accept an upper which fires the 40mm grenade, increasing flexibility by effectively allowing a unit to carry two weapons systems, for only about 150% the weight of one system. Hrm. This sounds to me like a bit of a pipedream. For the weapons systems to both be practical, you need to carry a full load of ammo for each, too, and that's going to change the percent weight saving quite considerably downwards, leaving you probably best employing the new model as a pair of systems that share a common base, modular perhaps: they Steyr AUG of the support weapon world... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 It doesn't seem to me that the DoD is in any hurry to field a replacement. They ordered 600 more last November and they are converting thousands of the existing inventory to the M2A1 standard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Yeah, weight's an issue if you're lugging the thing round on your back Attempting to carry an M2 on your back will quickly earn you a quick trip to the hospital. The thing is very heavy. We'd always carry the barrel separately from the receiver, in fact, because of the weight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Since the fact the German's didn't have a heavy weapon of similar caliber to the M2, I have to wonder why they didn't develop one? I know they had the capability and a decent design. The MG131 was in wide spread use on aircraft, why not mount one on the roof of a PzIV or PzIII to give it more punch and penetration compared to the MG34. Even today, German and Spanish made Leos sport only an MG3 on the commanders hatch. Must be a doctrine thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 In her day? Last I heard, Ma Deuce was still dishing out the happiness. In fact, ISTR that they've postponed her replacement, yet again. Did I say any different? Any day there's someone there to work her trigger, is Ma Deuce's day... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 It doesn't seem to me that the DoD is in any hurry to field a replacement. They ordered 600 more last November and they are converting thousands of the existing inventory to the M2A1 standard. Evidently, there are at least a few people in the DoD who think a new and improved 12.7mm HMG would be a good idea, because they keep throwing money at these prototype development programs. But AFAIK, that's as far as it's gotten. No one has been able to sell the DoD on spending a larger sums of money to actually buy a production run of any of the new systems, even as a limited run for a trial deployment. Again, I personally don't really see the need. Sure, a lighter 12.7mm MG would be great, and I'm sure some other modest improvements could be made as well. But no matter how light the gun gets, once you add the weight of the ammo a 12.7mm MG is never really going to be a man-portable weapons system -- just carrying enough rounds to feed the gun for any length of time is going to limit how far you can man-pack it. Lots of other places where the money is better spent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 ...a 12.7mm MG is never really going to be a man-portable weapons system -- just carrying enough rounds to feed the gun for any length of time is going to limit how far you can man-pack it. That reminds me, now and then I hear that the NATO forces in Afghanistan are using ponies and donkeys in the mountains. That strikes me as a really good idea and I wonder if there is any move afoot to create and maintain a pool of pack animals for situations where other forms of transport might be undesirable or impractical. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 That reminds me, now and then I hear that the NATO forces in Afghanistan are using ponies and donkeys in the mountains. That strikes me as a really good idea and I wonder if there is any move afoot to create and maintain a pool of pack animals for situations where other forms of transport might be undesirable or impractical. Michael Not sure why a standing pool a pack animals would really be necessary, other than a few for training purposes -- they're generally pretty readily available for purchase in those areas of the world where they have advantages over mechanized transport. Cheaper to just buy them over there, rather than keep them stabled in the U.S. and fly them somewhere. In any event, the U.S. Military does continue to maintain (limited) training programs on the care and use of pack animals. Mostly in the SF, but also in units like the 10th Mountain Division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I believe British doctrine was supposed to have integral rolling AA vehicles that were to accompany the armor, rendering individual .50 cal AA mount redundant. Centaur twin 20mm AA, Crusader triple 20mm AA, Crusader 40mm AA. But there were no enemy planes to shoot at so the units were quickly disbanded and the crews reassigned. They were in greater need of emergency replacement tank crews than AAA cover. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I believe British doctrine was supposed to have integral rolling AA vehicles that were to accompany the armor, rendering individual .50 cal AA mount redundant. Centaur twin 20mm AA, Crusader triple 20mm AA, Crusader 40mm AA. But there were no enemy planes to shoot at so the units were quickly disbanded and the crews reassigned. They were in greater need of emergency replacement tank crews than AAA cover. Yeah this baby: These had some pretty serious anti-infantry potential from what I heard. They had very sensitive fuzed 20mm rounds that would detonate when hitting branches or limbs. A few were used at St. Lambert to shoot up some German infantry in a forest. According to the author of the Regimental History of the South Alberta Tank regiment, there is video footage in archives that show the aftermath (taken by the same guy who recorded the famous surrender of POWs to Major Currie VC). According to him it was pretty gory with the bodies being shredded from the shells, shrapnel and wood splinters. Never seen those clips though myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They had very sensitive fuzed 20mm rounds that would detonate when hitting branches or limbs. A few were used at St. Lambert to shoot up some German infantry in a forest. According to the author of the Regimental History of the South Alberta Tank regiment, there is video footage in archives that show the aftermath (taken by the same guy who recorded the famous surrender of POWs to Major Currie VC). According to him it was pretty gory with the bodies being shredded from the shells, shrapnel and wood splinters. Never seen those clips though myself. I am sceptical that 20mm fragments would be likely to do more than cause minor flesh wounds if exploding more than, say, a foot from a body. The exception might be if a fragment cut an artery lying near the surface. On the other hand, having a 20mm shell go off in any part of one's torso or head would likely be immediately fatal. But many pilots survived having one detonate in their cockpits. The bursting charge of 20mm shells was not all that great. The one in the US shell for instance was only about 175 grains, and there wasn't a lot of metal to be converted into fragments. So, while getting hit by one is something you wouldn't want to happen, having them go off around you, while unpleasant, would probably not stand much chance of being fatal. Would definitely make you want to keep your head down though. If your reporter was seeing shredded bodies, that would have been the result of direct hits—which is certainly possible if they were caught out of shelter and cut down—or the effect of some kind of larger caliber weaponry. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I remember watching an old, old TV show called Navy Log (supposedly based on true WW2 stories) where a sailor took a Japanese 20mm round from a strafing plane; the round failed to explode and the episode's drama was about the poor Navy doc and medic that had to operate to extract the live HE round from this fellow's torso, without blowing all 3 of them up in the process. Navy Log was on TV from '55 to '58 according to IMDB. Just dated myself. Again. --- Sometimes the internet is awesome. Just found an episode list for Navy Log http://www.tvrage.com/shows/id-12881/episode_list and sure enough, there's the episode: "Human Bomb" played on 16 October, 1957...I was 9. Amazing what happens when the right neuron suddenly wakes up after all those years. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Same thing happened in the ground convoy during the Black hawk Down incident. Except it was an RPG, not a 20mm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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