Mortarfire by mapcoordinates?

[Crushingleeek]

But since you can plan artillery in the setup phase of any battle on to any blind spot, it pretty much acts as pre-registered artillery.

1). Not if artillery is designated as a reinforcement.

2). Since setup-phase pre-registered artillery comes in immediately, those target points should automatically become target reference points for the rest of the battle. Why could the arty teams have a target set at the beginning of the battle and then lose that reference and need extra time to target it again? (Again, not a criticism of designers, but just some thoughts. Since 80% of WWII casualties came from artillery, I think its worth hashing out for CMBN, whose devoted followers call it a simulation rather than a game!)

3). setup phase artillery, while certainly appreciated and useful, doesn't really completely "hit the spot" no pun intended. You want to do damage or at least suppress, but its more engaging in a developing battle. wiping out your opponent during the setup phase sorta puts a wet blanket on your game.

[womble]

2). Since setup-phase pre-registered artillery comes in immediately, those target points should automatically become target reference points for the rest of the battle. Why could the arty teams have a target set at the beginning of the battle and then lose that reference and need extra time to target it again? (Again, not a criticism of designers, but just some thoughts. Since 80% of WWII casualties came from artillery, I think its worth hashing out for CMBN, whose devoted followers call it a simulation rather than a game!)

I kinda like this idea. It would perhaps mean you'd have to buy TRPs in order to be eligible for pre-planned artillery missions... which doesn't seem too onerous. Though they should probably be more expensive for the attacker. As it stands, they're 30 points whoever buys 'em and 90 rarity for the US vs zero for the Germans, even in a meeting engagement. I know BFC don't fiddle with points values, but I'd've thought it would make sense for rarity to vary with context for something like that, and I wonder if it's an oversight.

[gunnulf]

2). Since setup-phase pre-registered artillery comes in immediately, those target points should automatically become target reference points for the rest of the battle. Why could the arty teams have a target set at the beginning of the battle and then lose that reference and need extra time to target it again?

If you are going down that route then you are getting a TRP for free effectively (they cost 30pts in QB - effectively the cost of the rounds used to range on that target before the battle). So you shouldnt be able to do prelim fire without a TRP really & the ability to do prelim fire is a kinda free bonus right now. In house rules I generally like to limit prelim fire without TRPs to 1 unit HE & 1 unit smoke for attackers and none for defenders (who wouldnt know in advance when H-Hour was). Then in open play TRPs are allowed obviously. Artillery does need limiting factors to prevent the god-factor already mentioned.

[gunnulf]

Womble beat me to the draw on that one I guess

[YankeeDog]

1)Since 80% of WWII casualties came from artillery, I think its worth hashing out for CMBN, whose devoted followers call it a simulation rather than a game!)

Be VERY careful of assuming too much based on this statistic. While largely true, a lot of WWII casualties also occurred in events that are outside of CM's scope, so you can't really compare what caused casualties in the war overall, to what causes the casualties you see in CM.

No one wants to create or play the scenario where German soldiers sit in their foxholes for 4 hours and get drilled by almost continuous 105mm artillery fire in preparation for an assault. And equally, no one wants to create or play the scenario where an American infantry battalion gets caught in an assembly area by a Nebelwerfer strike, and as a result the attack scheduled for that afternoon is called off.

[Brindlewolf]

The 80% deaths in WW2 were all mainly civillians.Disease,starvation,bombings and being caught up in all the hellfire.Most of them Allied civillians.

[Crushingleeek]

No one wants to create or play the scenario where German soldiers sit in their foxholes for 4 hours and get drilled by almost continuous 105mm artillery fire in preparation for an assault. And equally, no one wants to create or play the scenario where an American infantry battalion gets caught in an assembly area by a Nebelwerfer strike, and as a result the attack scheduled for that afternoon is called off.

I might be the 1%, but I sorta would...

[Crushingleeek]

I kinda like this idea. It would perhaps mean you'd have to buy TRPs in order to be eligible for pre-planned artillery missions... which doesn't seem too onerous. Though they should probably be more expensive for the attacker. As it stands, they're 30 points whoever buys 'em and 90 rarity for the US vs zero for the Germans, even in a meeting engagement. I know BFC don't fiddle with points values, but I'd've thought it would make sense for rarity to vary with context for something like that, and I wonder if it's an oversight.

Oops, forgot about the PBEM/quick battle crowd. I see in those cases balance is an issue.

I'm coming more from a historical scenario/campaign creator slant, where 4 hr bombardments were the norm , and victory/defeat is not necessarily who holds all the pieces at the end, but how you did given what you have.

[YankeeDog]

I might be the 1%, but I sorta would...

Well hey... nothing's stopping you. Make a big map, give one side a full battalion of infantry, and give the other side modules' worth of big artillery. Make some educated guesses as to where the enemy is likely to be, plot some pre-planned barrages, and have at it. Then call cease fire after all the arty is done and see how you did.

[Pak40]

1). Not if artillery is designated as a reinforcement.

2). Since setup-phase pre-registered artillery comes in immediately, those target points should automatically become target reference points for the rest of the battle. Why could the arty teams have a target set at the beginning of the battle and then lose that reference and need extra time to target it again? (Again, not a criticism of designers, but just some thoughts. Since 80% of WWII casualties came from artillery, I think its worth hashing out for CMBN, whose devoted followers call it a simulation rather than a game!)

3). setup phase artillery, while certainly appreciated and useful, doesn't really completely "hit the spot" no pun intended. You want to do damage or at least suppress, but its more engaging in a developing battle. wiping out your opponent during the setup phase sorta puts a wet blanket on your game.

1. True, but this is primarily a technique that battle designers use because most battles in WWII (at the CM scale) did not have pre-registered artillery.

2. I am not for this. This will allow every artillery mission in every battle the ability to have pre-registered accuracy. Highly unrealistic and would obviously be abused by the players.

3. If the scenario designer wants the player to have the TRP accuracy then he will put them in the battle. Otherwise just suck it up and call in artillery like normal and suffer the wait the way real soldiers did in WWII.

[fry30]

Why are people even bothering to reply to this garbage?

[JonS]

The 80% deaths in WW2 were all mainly civillians.

No, he's right on this. Whenever stats for this are available, they consistently show that around 70-80% of casualties to uniformed Army personnel were caused by indirect fire - artillery, mortars, rockets, etc.

But, as has been pointed out, context matters a lot and the context of most of those indirect fire casualties was irrelevant to the scope and scale of CM battles - typically occurring either well behind the lines, or as a continuous trickle of attrition over a period of days and weeks. Where the scope and scale /is/ consistent with CM, then the setting would make for a tedious scenario, as noted by YankeeDog.

[Crushingleeek]

1. True, but this is primarily a technique that battle designers use because most battles in WWII (at the CM scale) did not have pre-registered artillery.

2. I am not for this. This will allow every artillery mission in every battle the ability to have pre-registered accuracy. Highly unrealistic and would obviously be abused by the players.

3. If the scenario designer wants the player to have the TRP accuracy then he will put them in the battle. Otherwise just suck it up and call in artillery like normal and suffer the wait the way real soldiers did in WWII.

1). Mere speculation. you can't generalize what you think "most battles" (at the CM scale) had or did not have in terms of pre-registered artillery. Maybe I am modelling the most intense artillery barrage documented in WWII.

2). Is it really unrealistic for an artillery section to know the coordinates to what they have already previously fired upon? Will it really be abused, judging by the amount of artillery rounds allotted in the typical "full supply" option? (Ans: No.) If the enemy is thick enough to continue occupying that particular zone targeted by the TRP, do they deserve to live? (Ans: guess)

3) Precisely what I am arguing. TRP's are often neglected in scenario (ie single player scenarios and not quick battle/PBEM) design.

[JonS]

3) Precisely what I am arguing.

You're arguing for no change then. Good.

[Baneman]

2). Since setup-phase pre-registered artillery comes in immediately, those target points should automatically become target reference points for the rest of the battle. Why could the arty teams have a target set at the beginning of the battle and then lose that reference and need extra time to target it again?

2). Is it really unrealistic for an artillery section to know the coordinates to what they have already previously fired upon? Will it really be abused, judging by the amount of artillery rounds allotted in the typical "full supply" option? (Ans: No.) If the enemy is thick enough to continue occupying that particular zone targeted by the TRP, do they deserve to live? (Ans: guess)

An easy rationalisation would be that your pre-bombardment was called in 5 minutes ( or whatever the delay is ) before the start of the engagement - thus it was not pre-registered and they don't "keep" those co-ordinates any more than they do for the rest of the artillery strikes you call in during the battle.

[womble]

...they don't "keep" those co-ordinates any more than they do for the rest of the artillery strikes you call in during the battle.

Considering the utility of being able to swiftly "return to the scene of the crime" it seems an oversight in RL fire control procedures that "old" mission calculations weren't kept "on file" for at least a time without some formal request for pre-registration, and that formal request couldn't be made during the actual process of calling in and winding up a given mission. Obviously this is easier to store in the memory of your Paladin's FC computer, but artillerymen have always been ingenious, and I'm sure some record card system wouldn't have been beyond their admin capabilities...

[Crushingleeek]

You're arguing for no change then. Good.

Maybe some TRP "awareness" for designers:cool:

[Rocky Balboa]

This thread brings to mind a question I have wondered about. If you set a TRP up for the AI will it give preference to using the TRP? In other words can the scenario designer use TRPs to direct where he wants the AI to place it's indirect fire?

[Boche]

This thread brings to mind a question I have wondered about. If you set a TRP up for the AI will it give preference to using the TRP? In other words can the scenario designer use TRPs to direct where he wants the AI to place it's indirect fire?

I suppose the AI will use their support as they always do. No difference. The only difference is that the arty will come in faster.

[Pak40]

1). Mere speculation. you can't generalize what you think "most battles" (at the CM scale) had or did not have in terms of pre-registered artillery. Maybe I am modelling the most intense artillery barrage documented in WWII.

2). Is it really unrealistic for an artillery section to know the coordinates to what they have already previously fired upon? Will it really be abused, judging by the amount of artillery rounds allotted in the typical "full supply" option? (Ans: No.) If the enemy is thick enough to continue occupying that particular zone targeted by the TRP, do they deserve to live? (Ans: guess)

3) Precisely what I am arguing. TRP's are often neglected in scenario (ie single player scenarios and not quick battle/PBEM) design.

1. No, speculation is a wild ass guess. I'm basing my opinion on the multitude of books that I've read on WWII combat. Apart from major offenses and static front lines, pre-registered artillery seems like a luxury.

2. Yes, it will be abused by players. Players will call in an artillery strike in the setup phase using the "harass" option which will only waste a few rounds, then they will cancel the strike and rejoice that they will have a shiny new TRP for the rest of the game.

3. Well, the vast majority of battles and campaigns (that come with the game) are meant for the player to be on the offensive. However, it's the defensive side that usually has the time to pre-register artillery. So maybe it just seems skewed because we've mainly been playing on the offensive.

[Crushingleeek]

3. Well, the vast majority of battles and campaigns (that come with the game) are meant for the player to be on the offensive. However, it's the defensive side that usually has the time to pre-register artillery. So maybe it just seems skewed because we've mainly been playing on the offensive.

i'll drop this discussion, since it seems like the vast majority abhor the idea of expanding blind fire arty capability, and after hashing it out, all I'm really for is the more prevalent use of TRPs.

but I can't resist one more rebuttal: defensive sides have the time? So the defenders dictate when attacks will happen? "Hey attackers, we're doing this right now, we want to defend this moment, so you don't have time to set up your artillery!":D

of course its the offensive side that dictates the pace and sets up a 4 hr pre-offensive bombardment.

ok, i'm done, gonna go listen to ppl lament the lack of cover armor arc and missing southpaws.

[Pak40]

When did I ever say that defenders dictate when attacks will happen???

No, my point is that defenders, especially in static front line situations, have time to plan for their defense. This obviously includes pre-registering artillery where they can cover all avenues of approach from any attacking forces.

And I agree that planned attacks can often have pre-registered artillery but it's usually in a general and wider bombardment. It's not a tactical TRP like we're used to placing in CMBN. For example, the attacking force may know that TOWN X is defended by the enemy so they will pre-register artillery on the town but that doesn't mean that every hedgerow in and around the town is pre-registered with LINE bombardments.

[Crushingleeek]

For example, the attacking force may know that TOWN X is defended by the enemy so they will pre-register artillery on the town but that doesn't mean that every hedgerow in and around the town is pre-registered with LINE bombardments.

Exactly! I want to be able to pre-register artillery on town x!

let's face it, some of the 155mm, 205mm howitzers, and naval guns modeled in CM are not used for the smaller "tactical" situations that some insist is the point of CM battles.

Designing scenarios/campaigns within a larger context, I think it'd be nice if ppl have a chance to "loosen up" a town with some of the larger scale guns within cmbn that were intended for such a purpose, and not just suppressing 2nd squad of 3rd platoon.

But I'm not pushing further; not as many ppl as I hoped feel the same way.

[Pak40]

Exactly! I want to be able to pre-register artillery on town x!

let's face it, some of the 155mm, 205mm howitzers, and naval guns modeled in CM are not used for the smaller "tactical" situations that some insist is the point of CM battles.

And I will remind you that you can do this in the setup phase, which is typically how these bigger caliber guns were used anyway(before the attack, not during). And if you want to time an assault with the ending of a bombardment then you can set a 5, 10, or 15 minute delay which will allow you to move your troops into position.

[Rafter11]

That's not how artillery/mortar spotting works. It's pointless to send in mortar/artillery rounds if no one's there to see if the rounds are actually hitting their intended target.

I ran an 81mm mortar section in Vietnam for 10 months. I believe our equipment was similar to the WWII stuff. Here is the deal on grid fire.

When the mortar section is first located it must be "laid in", the gun base plates are settled, the aiming stakes are put out and the tubes are individually fired in to hit known spots. The slip scales on the sights are moved to agree with the FDC plotting board.

The plotting board in FDC was grease pencil marked with grid lines. In an actual fire mission the FO could call in a grid coordinate as a target along with the FO-Target magnetic compass direction. FDC marked the mortar location and the target location on the grid board. They then produced the tube sight data which was sent to the guns.

The reason you needed an FO to adjust the fire was because the first round usually wasn't on target. Why, because each time the guns had been fired since initial section lay, the base plates would usually move slightly. This fact screwed up the aiming stake-mortar-sight geometery and would produce a small error that grew until the section was re-laid. Other variables like humidity and ammo variables could make things worse.

So the FO watched or listened to the first round and called FDC with corrections. By rotating the plotting board wheel to the FO-Target direction as corrections came in, FDC could view the problem from the FOs perspective. They then marked the correction with a grease pencil on plotting board, rotated the plotting wheel back to grid North and sent new sight data to the guns. Once a round was on target the FO called for "Fire for Effect".

And good things happend.