Shorter turn time for WEGO

[Georgie]

Because of time limit on the scenario ?

Because something wrong or unexpected can happen at the beginning of the turn and you can't help your troops giving them different orders for a whole 60s (they can be dead after this time) and they are not smart enough, with their own AI, to react properly....? If one minute was so good and proper way to play then why bother with RT at all ?

60s was a compromise, but worked well for years. But we are not sure, if a different value like 30s would not work even better. The game became more complicated and faster in CMx2 incarnation, much more is happening, so maybe 30s turn time would be better suited ?

We won't know for sure, until the betatesters try it and see if it makes a better gameplay, or maybe not much is gained (but also nothing lost).

Well, if someone liked the 60s turns better, he could just click "go" making any orders after first 30s turn .[/quote

I think Amizaur hit the nail on the head. 60sec turns worked fine with the CM1 games as they had less controllable things happening and the units seemed less vulnerable and the AI responded differently to attack. I seem to get into way too much trouble in CMBN as opposed to CMBO in a 60sec turn. The option would still be there for those who prefer the 60sec turn time and if I'm having fun it doesn't bother me if I have to send and receive more moves.

[sburke]

How do you know how much coding it would take to add this. ????

Personnally I see nothing wrong with the present minute. But I think it would not be a hard thing to give the player options, where he could select the time wanted. Like maybe a choice of 15,30 and or 60 seconds.

But I also agree with, dont bother to PBEM with me unless it is the minute turn. Games already take a very long time for most of us.

But no harm in adding the feature for those that could use it.

I don't believe I ever said I knew how much time it would take. I simply assumed it would take some X amount of time that would have to come from somewhere. It seems every change that is asked for on this forum is always done so with the assumption that it won't take any of BFCs time and therefore they should just do it.

Personally I start from the assumption that everything takes time and I have no idea of the intricacies involved and therefore am very hesitant to just start throwing out every suggestion that comes to mind. I am betting BFC pays about as much attention to that as I do roadkill while roaring along the highway.

[skogtroll]

IMO BF isn't overworked. They did some Sherman tanks, buildings and 300 (in base game)flat like table QB maps with 4-5 trees on it (I was testing this. I can do some of them in 5minutes without AI- forests without brush wood, farms without fences etc.). Sorry this isn't fair. The old CM's was three standalone games for reasonable price. Now we have modules for modules for much bigger amount of $'s. I know old CM's had many limitations but now this is pretty the same. I can give acquire command and I think is great but i cannot shoot the the aircraft. I can finally kill Sherman tank with my PzIV but i cannot use cover armor to make an ambush with my AT gun. I create a much greater buildings in the editor but they are not looks like in Normandy . And so on.

[sburke]

IMO BF isn't overworked. They did some Sherman tanks, buildings and 300 (in base game)flat like table QB maps with 4-5 trees on it (I was testing this. I can do some of them in 5minutes without AI- forests without brush wood, farms without fences etc.). Sorry this isn't fair. The old CM's was three standalone games for reasonable price. Now we have modules for modules for much bigger amount of $'s. I know old CM's had many limitations but now this is pretty the same. I can give acquire command and I think is great but i cannot shoot the the aircraft. I can finally kill Sherman tank with my PzIV but i cannot use cover armor to make an ambush with my AT gun. I create a much greater buildings in the editor but they are not looks like in Normandy . And so on.

I see you have learned the finer points of how to try to influence people. "I'd like you to implement something new in the game and I know you have time because the product you are delivering sucks and is pretty much a rip off compared to your old product. You guys should work harder for my money".

Yes you might be able to create a map quickly, but as you noted w/o the AI. Let's see how long it takes you doing the AI. I honestly have not spent much time looking at the QB maps so others will have to comment on those, but the scenario and campaign maps look pretty darn nice and I know they take a LOT of time.

Personally for the money I think I got a really great deal. Sorry if you feel differently, but it is a subjective experience. I also expect your assessment of how much effort goes into producing the game is seriously off.

[Mord]

IMO BF isn't overworked.

Have you ever designed any mods? Or designed a full scenario with AI and all? I've spent a month just on unit portraits (and I had help) and I can tell you right now...I wouldn't want BFC's job! All this stuff you take for granted takes time...everything. From maps to the buttons on a uniform. I'll guarantee they are pretty overworked just on my VERY limited experience.

I've got no problem with people wanting things in the game...I sure want more but I'd never assume to know how hard they do or don't work. I can only imagine the headaches and thousands of hours it takes to make the entire game.

Mord.

[Rocky Balboa]

IMO BF isn't overworked. They did some Sherman tanks, buildings and 300 (in base game)flat like table QB maps with 4-5 trees on it (I was testing this. I can do some of them in 5minutes without AI- forests without brush wood, farms without fences etc.). Sorry this isn't fair. The old CM's was three standalone games for reasonable price. Now we have modules for modules for much bigger amount of $'s. I know old CM's had many limitations but now this is pretty the same. I can give acquire command and I think is great but i cannot shoot the the aircraft. I can finally kill Sherman tank with my PzIV but i cannot use cover armor to make an ambush with my AT gun. I create a much greater buildings in the editor but they are not looks like in Normandy . And so on.

I happen to think the quick battle maps included are very well done however the great thing about this game is that if you don't like the ones included then you can create your own.

Since you have stated that you can create much better maps very quickly then I wish you would hurry up and make them so we can all start enjoying your creations. Personally I don't think you can ever have too many QB maps ....

When you get them done and if they are as good as you say they are, then send me your PayPal info and I'll send you a donation.

When do you think you might have them ready? ... Are they done yet?

[Sergei]

Come on now, you don't even have any kinds of command delays in CMBN like you had in CMx1. It'd be more realistic to have longer turns, not shorter.

And it's a slippery slope - soon someone will be asking for 15 second turns, and finally 1 second turns and then... oh god where does this end???

[Brindlewolf]

60 seconds can be a long time.Especially after 10 seconds in you realise that gamble you just took,is a total balls up and there won't be many of your guys turning up for the next scenario in the campaign

[skogtroll]

I didn't say this is no problem, did I? You are the one person with as you say Very limited experience (or not). I was always thinking that the battlefront isn't one-man project.I know how time-eating is map editor. I'm doing my own maps and I did a few by now. But the complexity of this maps is far bigger then than original QB maps. I also use google street views, maps and aerial photographs (perhaps I will add something for repository soon). This is very long process. I know that. I know the mission maps are quite good, I know set up the AI and test everything but... But there is only a few missions and operations and some of them are rather simple and not interesting (for example Barkmanns Corner). For me and most of my friends the most important part of game was QB. I was very disappointed when first time look this maps. Flat space with forests made wit 3x3 brush and buildings placed like boxes, without the conception.

Beyound this we heve many 3D models, but sorry most of them is nearly the same (yes a know sherman is sherman). Sorry I don't have more time. I want to finish my st. Mere-Eglise but I have to learn now:mad:. Good day.

[sburke]

60 seconds can be a long time.Especially after 10 seconds in you realise that gamble you just took,is a total balls up and there won't be many of your guys turning up for the next scenario in the campaign

Yes it can, but that is one aspect I like about it. There are consequences. It kind of reminds me of The Gamers TCS series where you had to implemet op sheets. If your plan was hosed, implementing new orders took time (a lot of time with a poor force) and in that window you paid for your errors. The net result for me is to slow down. Haste is usually what gets me in trouble, not necessarily the 60 second turn.

Granted this all comes down to personal opinion and playstyles, but I really do like the current game configuration.

[sburke]

I want to finish my st. Mere-Eglise but I have to learn now:mad:. Good day.

Well hurry up! I'd love that map!

[Amizaur]

"How do you know how much coding it would take to add this. ????"

I do not KNOW. But knowing a bit about coding, and how various games written in different languages work internally, I can suppose so.

Usually changing some parameter of the working game code - like turret rotating speed, AT-gun setup/embarking time, length of the turn - is much more simple, than to make completly new vehicles, behaviours, orders, effects. Of course sometimes it's not that easy as changing a "60" number to "30" number somwhere in the code - there can be some dependances, some things can be optimised for 60s turns and MAYBE some additionals changes in code would have to be made.

And an interface option for chosing 60 or 30s turns would have to be added, but adding new interface options (some yes/no requester or a window with two options to chose at start of scenario) is usually not that hard.

On the other hand, coding something new - like a completly new order (new code depending on other code, for which maybe there is a lack of data passed to this part of code, so some arguments have to be added to various functions in differents parts of code, some maybe root ones - each one then tested troughly to be sure nothing was broken), or weapon (a flamethrower, again new code for units/AI to handle it, calculating damage done, graphics and effects, settings things on fire), a new tanks/vehicles (usually using existing code, but lot's of 3D and graphics, lot's of testing if they work properly, if the parameters are right) - it's usually much more work than some modifications of existing code. Here most of the time is spend on checking if the simple change done, didn't break something other and (one would thing) completly unrelated.

To be honest, even a "simple" modification can sometimes require heavy modifications in much more fundamental parts of code, because some kind of data or information or parameter that would be needed, may be not available in the part of code that was to be enhanced. So other parts of code, functions, have to be modified, parameters added, working of everything troughly tested ect. On the other hand, if something is really needed, or should be fixed, the amount of work is not really excuse... Would be better to code everything right from the start, but it rarely happens and such enchancements just can't be avoided sometimes, if something is to be really corrected/done right.

When I was working on some code I much preffered doing modifications and fine tunning to existing code and improving it, over coding completly new stuff but I'm a lazy person . For some others, coding the new stuff is exciting, and modyfing old, working one - boring . It was not making games, of course, only doing some minor modding work years ago (in games where with modding the code could be modified, things like actual unit behaviour, working of systems, parameters, not only GFX...). But I beliee even such simple modding work can give some understanding of how games/code work, and some general idea of what kind change/modification would be - probably - an easy and quick one, and what other kind of change/modification would probably require lot's of work, new coding and redoing of some things.

[Lt Belenko]

I'm not holding my breath on this one ever being implemented but it really is a good idea. Especially if the choice is there for 30 or 60 seconds...

But I can see the thread of the future: 15 no 10 seconds that's what we want. Wargamers are never satisfied.

Tac AI is supposed to take over during the game play. Could you imagine a platoon leader giving orders every 10 seconds no make that 5 yeah 5 seconds ..but 3 would be cool too.

[Sailor Malan2]

60 seconds can be a long time.Especially after 10 seconds in you realise that gamble you just took,is a total balls up and there won't be many of your guys turning up for the next scenario in the campaign

Welcome to Real Life TM.

" Corporal, take your section and assault the house opposite"

" Yes sir!"

Turns to order his section. Telepathically instructs section on assault, and gives the order to move. Section runs out in to road, enters building opposite to find it is in line of sight of a close range MMG. Telepahically passes this info to commander (you). Receives revised orders and rushes back out into street. Simulaneously another section further down street gets your order to move to a different position, and fires on revealed MMG. A tank 1/2 mile away switches to fast and heads for the perfect overwatch, unerringly targets the right patch of woods (even though the crew cant quite see the MMG). The assault section then strolls back in to the building across the street.

All brought to you by Telepathic_eye_in_the_sky_command_link.com

You really think no-one got killed in WW2 because they didnt know what to do, and their immediate command chain had no clue what the matter was?

To my mind, the challenge of 60 secs turns and slightly flawed TACAI is CM. You want god games? Go play Command and Conquer, or whatever this years twitch fest is.

[JonS]

10 seconds in you realise that gamble you just took, is a total balls up

A gamble without consequences isn't a gamble.

[slysniper]

The point of the post was to point out it is not our call as to how much coding time it would take, no one knows for sure, even BF.

We make suggestions and they decide if they think it is worth their efforts.

As for the minute complaint, it has ben around since the game has been around. So providing options would be a nice feature.

As for what players want, I could see many get into using the 30 second feature. The 15 second would be a good minimun. (Think about it, you need to run that blue bar for every allotted time chosen, make it any shorter and you are seeing the machine compute more than you are seeing any change in the Action.

Like I said before, personnally, I think a minute is fine. If I want control, I play RT and that is fun against the AI also.

but suggesting some time options is not a issue or something that needs debated as to if it is worth programming time. None of that relates to the original request.

[Mord]

I didn't say this is no problem, did I?

LOL you said they weren't overworked in your humble opinion.

You are the one person with as you say Very limited experience (or not).

Yes. I am going by the 30 or so mods I've done...tiny things compared to the whole of CMBN or CMSF. But they've taken me hundreds of hours. So, if it takes me hundreds of hours to tweak something already created imagine the amount of work it takes to create the entire thing...and have it actually play.

I was always thinking that the battlefront isn't one-man project.

Well, up until a year ago there was only one guy who wrote the code...for CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, CMSF and all it's modules. That's a lot of work! And their staff is pretty small compared to most outfits. EA probably has more guys just to clean their toilets than BFC has in the whole company.

I know how time-eating is map editor. I'm doing my own maps and I did a few by now. But the complexity of this maps is far bigger then than original QB maps.

Well, once you've designed about 300 of them then you'll be in the same ball park as Mark Ezra. He had to do them in a timely fashion, on a dead line. That's quite a lot of maps. He probably couldn't sit and agonize over every little detail like we can when we make things.

I am not arguing with you whether things can't be made better and that there aren't things that don't need fixing...there are and they can. It was the statement like these guys don't work hard, I found a bit a presumptuous. That's all.

Part of the beauty of this game is that we can take it upon ourselves to create our own content and put it out there for everybody else to use. You are doing that and I am doing that so that's great. I hope you continue. Just show a little respect towards the dudes that made that possible to begin with. If it wasn't for their hard work we wouldn't have anything to mod or design.

Mord.

[sburke]

EA probably has more guys just to clean their toilets than BFC has in the whole company.

My buddy was the telecom manager for EA out here...yeah they have a telecom dept. I am betting BFCs telecom dept consists of Charles and Steve putting each other on speed dial. Though I hear Charles deleted Steve's entry after he unfriended him. Besides even Siri can't figure out who he wants to dial on his iPhone when all he can say is "gurgle".

[Brindlewolf]

Welcome to Real Life TM.

" Corporal, take your section and assault the house opposite"

" Yes sir!"

Turns to order his section. Telepathically instructs section on assault, and gives the order to move. Section runs out in to road, enters building opposite to find it is in line of sight of a close range MMG. Telepahically passes this info to commander (you). Receives revised orders and rushes back out into street. Simulaneously another section further down street gets your order to move to a different position, and fires on revealed MMG. A tank 1/2 mile away switches to fast and heads for the perfect overwatch, unerringly targets the right patch of woods (even though the crew cant quite see the MMG). The assault section then strolls back in to the building across the street.

All brought to you by Telepathic_eye_in_the_sky_command_link.com

You really think no-one got killed in WW2 because they didnt know what to do, and their immediate command chain had no clue what the matter was?

To my mind, the challenge of 60 secs turns and slightly flawed TACAI is CM. You want god games? Go play Command and Conquer, or whatever this years twitch fest is.

I'm not ripping the game here but ripping my own flawed tactics.I've played CM since CMBO.Though the CMx2 engine has RT,i still prefer WEGO.You get annoyed at yourself 10 seconds in is what i meant or that warm glow of satisfaction when your gamble pays off.It's all good stuff

[PaulMG]

Some of the people that think that God put the 60 second rule on the tablet that Moses brought down the hill also screamed when BFC announced that CMx2 would be real time.

[Mord]

...and that the first game would be modern...and in 1:1 and...

That's what we do here!

Mord.

[PaulMG]

LOL Mord and someone will be along soon to tell us that if we played real time like God intended, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[sburke]

Some of the people that think that God put the 60 second rule on the tablet that Moses brought down the hill also screamed when BFC announced that CMx2 would be real time.

Actually no, that was a translation error from ancient Aramaic. It was actually "Thou shalt not play real time" hence the screaming. The 60 second wego turn is actually from Leviticus along with another rule for map creation -Don't have a variety of crops on the same field.

[PaulMG]

In the New Testament it says you can have your cake and eat it too. Or sumfink

[Michael Emrys]

Because something wrong or unexpected can happen at the beginning of the turn and you can't help your troops giving them different orders for a whole 60s (they can be dead after this time) and they are not smart enough, with their own AI, to react properly....?

Gee, you mean like real life where a commander might not be able to intervene with his troops for several minutes at a time because he's on another part of the battlefield and can't get word to them immediately? Or worse yet, might not even know about their predicament?

If one minute was so good and proper way to play then why bother with RT at all ?

You know, I used to ask myself that very question. Maybe it's because RT sells and BFC likes to make money.

Michael