In what bizarre world is this possible

[SnakeTheFox]

I know the general rule of thumb in this game is "anything can happen once", but in what world can this happen? A little backstory:

I'm playing Tiger's Day, some strangely amusing mission from the repository where the Americans are pushing on a small but well entrenched German garrison, with seemingly Soviet doctrine such as massed human (and tank) waves and crazy amounts of artillery being employed against the Germans. Blah blah, blam blam, lots of casualties each side and I reluctantly pull my Tiger back after it loses its optics and main gun and so becomes a (very well armored) machine gun. After pulling it to the rear of the town, a M5A1 Stuart starts railing it with 37mm AP until, doing nothing but knocking out the tracks. As it's continuing to constantly barrage this helpless Tiger, I move a 'shrek crew to try and take it out for no reason other than a few ****s+giggles. Then this happens:

I'm moving these two in and out of this forest and they just can't spot this stuart to (quite literally) save their lives. Keep in mind this Stuart is constantly firing its main gun. I never bothered to make a save during all this (surely, I thought, this wasn't going to persist) but after constantly moving these two closer and closer to the Stuart (and eventually moving it within the 'shreks minimum arming radius of 20m or so IIRC) until the tank crew spots them and mows them down with .30 cal. As they're being chewed up, they still didn't spot it. Were these Germans not issued working eyes, or what's going on?

Edit:

Before anyone asks, Vein's Germans, Aris textures.

[Rokko]

Tanks placed under a tree = totally invisible to infantry

Sad truth in many many cases, happened to me way to often which is why I complained a lot about LOS in combination with foliage.

I had tanks moving through trees within 30m of infantry not get spotted, I had tanks firing not get spotted, etc.

Interestingly, this very often happened to me with Stuarts, also, like in your example.

I would argue that a tank within 30m or so should be almost automatically be spotted by infantry, simply due to the noise.

Edit:

Of course, they are not totally unspottable, but it takes unrealistically long, while tank-on-infantry spotting (buttoned and unbuttoned) seems much faster.

There is an example in the Panzerfaust thread where a tank-hunter team took 12 seconds to spot a tank in clear view on a road with a building in the background; all within PzF range!

12 seconds is pretty damn long I'd say.

[honjkirsen]

Yes am afraid its a very frustrating 'glitch' i have also encountered, tanks in clear view with a clear shot & the whole of Normandy can see them except for the shrek team you placed 20 meters away to take out the tank and save that flank from collapsing! Am at a loss with the LOS issue.

On a sunnier note however i did witness a sherman fire at my panther, hit, rico'd * and the spent shot hit the building next to the panther causing it to collapse and kill half the squad inside.

Ce'st la guerre i think.

[Baneman]

Well, at least they DID spot it after 12 seconds.

Have to agree here, the ability of units to NOT spot targets right in front of them is probably the most irritating "bug" in game at the moment ( well, ok, for me, anyway ).

And it's not only infantry - in a game of Huzzar! I'm playing at the moment, I had a Stug sitting, unbuttoned, looking down a road, with a covered arc directly to my front (just wide enough to encompass the road to the corner.

Just waiting for an American tank to turn the corner into my sights.

Suddenly, I die ! WTF !

The American tank turned the corner all right, then it drove 10m towards me, saw me, stopped, aimed and fired. Stug never saw a thing.

Now when anomalies and/or spotting delays have been brought up before, it's been said that it may be due to spotting cycles ie. that unit hasn't checked for the last couple of seconds.

Could I then suggest that the number of spotting cycles be increased ? Surely the only effect of this would be to increase the CPU power required - and calculating a WEGO turn with more CPU power would just make it take longer, right ?

So, seriously, would anyone complain if his WEGO turn took 4 times as long to compute IF it meant that units could spot stuff in front of them ?

[stoex]

So, seriously, would anyone complain if his WEGO turn took 4 times as long to compute IF it meant that units could spot stuff in front of them ?

Not at all. But I WOULD object strongly to the engine not being able to compute my RT battles in RT any more because of the extra spotting checks! Steve has already mentioned more than once that the spotting checks are one of the main performance hogs in the engine, and that they didn't see a way to currently increase their fidelity without making the game unplayable on older (and even some newer) rigs. So don't hold your breath on this one.

[MattMulder]

the question is, how many of you would sacrifice RT for better spotting features?

I would since I never play RT, like most of the players

[John1966]

I would argue that a tank within 30m or so should be almost automatically be spotted by infantry, simply due to the noise.

Totally agree. +1 to that. Etc, etc. Infantry will automatically spot an enemy AFV within 30m. Easy to implement. Not perfect by any means but would stop some of the many, many invisible tank situations we've all seen. My best example was being able to sneak up on an ATG because they were looking the other way. They didn't spot my Sherman until it was about 5-10m away. They could SMELL it at that range.

[Thomm]

Remotely related:

Yesterday I went to my car and started to unlock it.

Suddenly, I glimpse movement right in front of my car.

I look and I see a guy crunched behind his motorcycle, which was parked in front of my car, apparently to fix something.

So that guy was two meters away from me, not hidden by any means, and I only noticed him once he started moving.

This is not related to the obvious spotting glitches (such as the one in the screenshots), but it made me think nonetheless.

Best regards,

Thomm

[wadepm]

I imagine you could have a different cycle rate for RT and WEGO?

[JonS]

I would argue that a tank within 30m or so should be almost automatically be spotted by infantry, simply due to the noise.

Grossman disagrees with you.

Note, especially, the effects listed at 175bpm

[Baneman]

Not at all. But I WOULD object strongly to the engine not being able to compute my RT battles in RT any more because of the extra spotting checks! Steve has already mentioned more than once that the spotting checks are one of the main performance hogs in the engine, and that they didn't see a way to currently increase their fidelity without making the game unplayable on older (and even some newer) rigs. So don't hold your breath on this one.

Yes, but I specifically said WEGO - I realise that it probably can't be increased ( yet ) for RT.

In an ideal world, of course, the cycle frequency could be adjusted by the user to fit his PC's ability. ( I remember waiting 20+ minutes for a Prokhorovka scenario turn to compute in CMBB )

But even without such a feature, just, say, quadrupling the cycles for WEGO would be helpful ( unless there's some other bug in play )

[Cymru]

Remotely related:

Yesterday I went to my car and started to unlock it.

Suddenly, I glimpse movement right in front of my car.

I look and I see a guy crunched behind his motorcycle, which was parked in front of my car, apparently to fix something.

So that guy was two meters away from me, not hidden by any means, and I only noticed him once he started moving.

This is not related to the obvious spotting glitches (such as the one in the screenshots), but it made me think nonetheless.

Best regards,

Thomm

But, if you knew there might be motorcycles in the area (and they will kill you if they spot you first), you might be more observant.

[Baneman]

Suddenly, I glimpse movement right in front of my car.

I look and I see a guy crunched behind his motorcycle, which was parked in front of my car, apparently to fix something.

So that guy was two meters away from me, not hidden by any means, and I only noticed him once he started moving.

This is not related to the obvious spotting glitches (such as the one in the screenshots), but it made me think nonetheless.

Yes, but are you likely to miss a van coming around the corner ?

Especially if you're sitting still and watching the corner.

And expecting the van.

And you can probably hear the van coming.

@JonS - are you seriously suggesting that a game shortcoming re. spotting is related to real life combat fatigue effects ? That's reaching a bit, don't you think ?

[Thomm]

Yes, but are you likely to miss a van coming around the corner?

Unrelated, again:

My aunt lately did when she crossed the street, and she got a nice big blue spot where it hit her as a reminder.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Rokko]

Grossman disagrees with you.

Note, especially, the effects listed at 175bpm

Well unfortunately CMBN doesn't track every individual's heart beat frequency, so this data is pretty much worthless if you ask me

Also I have never heard a story going like "there was a tank 20m in front of us and we totally didn't see" (probably because anyone involved would survive very long).

But also think about how the 2 guys got there: Sure, in the game it's some supernatural being inducting orders into the minds of every squad/teamleader, but in real life wouldn't there have been a Plt. Co telling these guys: "We think theres a tank somewhere over there, so go get it"?

[stikkypixie]

Well, at least they DID spot it after 12 seconds.

Have to agree here, the ability of units to NOT spot targets right in front of them is probably the most irritating "bug" in game at the moment ( well, ok, for me, anyway ).

And it's not only infantry - in a game of Huzzar! I'm playing at the moment, I had a Stug sitting, unbuttoned, looking down a road, with a covered arc directly to my front (just wide enough to encompass the road to the corner.

Just waiting for an American tank to turn the corner into my sights.

Suddenly, I die ! WTF !

The American tank turned the corner all right, then it drove 10m towards me, saw me, stopped, aimed and fired. Stug never saw a thing.

Now when anomalies and/or spotting delays have been brought up before, it's been said that it may be due to spotting cycles ie. that unit hasn't checked for the last couple of seconds.

Could I then suggest that the number of spotting cycles be increased ? Surely the only effect of this would be to increase the CPU power required - and calculating a WEGO turn with more CPU power would just make it take longer, right ?

So, seriously, would anyone complain if his WEGO turn took 4 times as long to compute IF it meant that units could spot stuff in front of them ?

It sounds like one of those situations where a cover arc would have been useful.

[Moon]

Note that the infantry guys are out of contact. This influences how quickly you, the player, get info from them.

[Thomm]

Note that the infantry guys are out of contact. This influences how quickly you, the player, get info from them.

Even when they are selected?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Bradley Dick]

Also I have never heard a story going like "there was a tank 20m in front of us and we totally didn't see" (probably because anyone involved would survive very long).

Story time!

Iraq, Summer of 2003. Standing on MSR Tampa because a transportation unit had been ambushed and had reported spotting an IED. We're on route recon so it's our job to spot these IED's, the people planting the, trigger men or other bad folks with ill intentions.

We know there's an IED in the area. It's the desert. We're on a highway. My lieutenant is literally standing within a circle of five artillery shells poorly buried in the dirt with det chord linking them together before we find them.

If it had detonated, we would have been identified with dna testing.

[winkelried]

Well unfortunately CMBN doesn't track every individual's heart beat frequency, so this data is pretty much worthless if you ask me

It doesn t track hbf, but it seems that the unit in question is tiring.

It seems to me thath this issue has to do with to things we came along quite often: the observation is incidental - it could be that it is just off in the distribution you would find when doing testing with a statistically significant sample. The other issue is abstraction - dense forest is abstracted in CMBN and i ab not sure if what you see as player is really whdat you get. If there is dense foilage and the tank engine is turning void, then even firing by the tank can be difficult to pinoint just by sound - especially when the guys are tired, with battle fatigue and maybe some hearing problems ...

[Baneman]

It sounds like one of those situations where a cover arc would have been useful.

...

I had a Stug sitting, unbuttoned, looking down a road, with a covered arc directly to my front (just wide enough to encompass the road to the corner.

...

Which was, in fact, the case.

[winkelried]

@JonS - are you seriously suggesting that a game shortcoming re. spotting is related to real life combat fatigue effects ? That's reaching a bit, don't you think ?

i don't believe that this is a shortcoming, but an effect of modeling (e.g. fatigue, foilage etc).

[stikkypixie]

Which was, in fact, the case.

Whoops, I will now work on my reading skills .

[siffo998]

Also I have never heard a story going like "there was a tank 20m in front of us and we totally didn't see" (probably because anyone involved would survive very long).

well i can remember a story from a american tank veteran in a history channel documentation that they parked their sherman right in front of a bocage/hedge (ambush position) just before they realised after a few moments that on the other side of the hedge was standing a tiger tank with the barrel pointing in their direction (obviously the tiger crew hasnt seen them either). long story short after pumping panicly around 5 shells into the tiger ...the tiger crew returned fire and the 88 shell went right through the sherman.

even if the history channel is really not the best source for reliable information about history, according to this veteran **** like this really happened in combat.

by the way i have recently read a story from a german jagdpanther tank commander who sank his jagdpanther in a liquid manure pit while driving backwards. it took the crew half an hour to get the tank out of it. the whole attack was over meanwhile... so you see... **** happens... and things like these are not even modelled in cmbn.

[Erwin]

I agree with MM, not being able to spot in these sorts of situations ruins, well maybe not quite that bad, but is REALLY annoying to us WEGO-ers.

It's another example of how one has to play the game "system", rather than focus on RL tactics. And since "realism" has always been CM2's selling point...

It's like how foxholes don't protect ATG's or their crews, and the advice we get is to put the ATG further into the woods. Which then means that one now has to test and figure out how many meters into the woods is the ideal so the gun can see out without being spotted so easily - just like we used to calculate in CM1. So, we're back to someone like POOR OLD SPIKE (remember him?) doing all those tests so we can figure out how to play well vs the system.