Any news about the CW mod patch?

[Guest]

Sorry if I have caused offense.

No, none taken. I was just being incredibly circumspect.

Fair enough. I wasn't implying that the team didn't have a due process for fixing bugs. Just that there seems to be a communication issue regarding what's fixed in the pipeline and when to expect it.

CM development seems to live very close to the player community (I mean we get level editors) so is going to have a passionate (and generally savvy crowd). Such communities take care of themselves given the right resources.

I understand that new features will be covered by NDA, but I don't imagine issue patches fall under the same protections. My guess is your beta testers have some overview of issues with the public builds that filed and patched for future releases. It would be helpful if known issues and their patch status was posted somewhere prominently on the boards somewhere. It would save a lot of forum drilling for new users (who may be quite casual players).

Issues *may* fall under the NDA. And testers wouldn't know that. Even I wouldn't sometimes. Which would add a level of complexity to reporting about them to you.

Also, reported "bugs" out here very often bear little or no resemblance to bugs on our end. Something seen as a single problem may actually be a dozen different bugs, or no bug at all. And all of those have to be confirmed separately, tested for, etc.

So to properly communicate that, we'd have to spend time not only culling our own bug tracking system for issues that had been resolved (which may not mean they've been "fixed" in any forum-understood way, which would have to be explained), but also translating them back and forth between what you're talking about and what we're looking at. Considering the volume of work that we do, that's a huge, and constant, job. And the results wouldn't be very transparent, honestly.

So, essentially, again, we'd have to do a whole lot of work (and LOSE some of the work we currently do) to provide a resource that is a) only useful to a small number of people that actually read / check the thing, wouldn't really provide 100% transparency, and c) would probably require a whole lot of explaining AND spawn "why didn't they fix my obvious problem" threads that would need to be answered as well.

That's not a fair trade-off, versus getting features into the game.

[Childress]

Sorry if I have caused offense.

That's the spirit! More honey and less vinegar! A few more of these and maybe even Steve may pop up. Like the old days.

[sburke]

So, essentially, again, we'd have to do a whole lot of work (and LOSE some of the work we currently do) to provide a resource that is a) only useful to a small number of people that actually read / check the thing, wouldn't really provide 100% transparency, and c) would probably require a whole lot of explaining AND spawn "why didn't they fix my obvious problem" threads that would need to be answered as well.

That's not a fair trade-off, versus getting features into the game.

Kind of like what has already happened here? LOL

Seriously thanks Phil for trying to provide some light and clarity so folks realize you guys really aren't ignoring us. Now enough water cooler chatter, get back into your monk's cell and get to work please. Times a wastin! Now about those TPS reports, you know we have a new cover sheet right?

[Rake]

The red button crash bug is relatively rare. The number of people reporting it versus the number playing the game is.... small. To re-frame your question: "How did a small number of testers miss something, when a few members of a group many orders of magnitude larger found it quickly post-release?"

Phil... this has happened to me every time I've started a game with wire.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, except for very small (1-2 platoons or one reinforced platoon) scenarios, I rarely have time to complete the planning, setup and plotting first turn moves in one sitting. This means I have to save the start turn before I begin the game... or leave CM running in the background for possibly several days.

I just opened up the second scenario of the Engel campaign in which I'd plotted a handful of moves and made some setup adjustments. I've been in and out several times saving after each. As I expected, the game ctd'd as soon as I hit the red button.

[Guest]

Phil... this has happened to me every time I've started a game with wire.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, except for very small (1-2 platoons or one reinforced platoon) scenarios, I rarely have time to complete the planning, setup and plotting first turn moves in one sitting. This means I have to save the start turn before I begin the game... or leave CM running in the background for possibly several days.

I just opened up the second scenario of the Engel campaign in which I'd plotted a handful of moves and made some setup adjustments. I've been in and out several times saving after each. As I expected, the game ctd'd as soon as I hit the red button.

I understand that people are coming across it. I'm the one that took the initial complaints, then tracked and fixed the darned thing. And we would like to get those fixes out to you as soon as possible. But we can't hotfix everything like this, or we'd never do anything else. So: it'll be in the next patch.

In terms of testing, the bug requires that you be playing a PBEM game (or save during setup in a normal game) that involves wire deployed in a specific configuration. Out of all of the possible play styles, for both scenarios and QBs, how many games do you think this affects? Not a lot, especially when you consider that we need to test all of the ways that the game works, and that the bug was introduced pretty late in the cycle.

So... yes. People are seeing it. Does that mean our small number of testers would absolutely have come across it in the time that it was a bug? No.

[Childress]

Same problem here with the Engel campaign. But remember, Rake, there are lots of other campaigns. And scenarios.

[Guest]

And QB maps. And setups. And play styles, again, which wouldn't have come across it. Normal WEGO, TCP/IP, real time. None of them would have hit this unless they saved during setup. So basically you'd need to be playing PBEM on an affected map, *after* it became a bug.

[Childress]

Setting aside the Mac issues, there haven't been ANY game killer bugs in CMBN since 1.0, in my opinion of course. Just controversies and tweak worthy stuff. In that version there was this bug that made troops behind walls more vulnerable than those in front. Now that was a baddie. But remedied in 1.01. CM will always be a work in progress, so enjoy the ride.

[Ranger33]

I maintain that IMO this one particular issue deserves a hotfix. It breaks portions of the game, including both of the featured campaigns and there is no way around it for PBEM. It also seems to be present for everyone. I would imagine that most players DO save in setup before starting a map, in case they want to go back and adjust something without having to start all over. Just look at the tech help forum, there are half a dozen threads about this on the first page alone.

[Rake]

I understand that people are coming across it. I'm the one that took the initial complaints, then tracked and fixed the darned thing. And we would like to get those fixes out to you as soon as possible. But we can't hotfix everything like this, or we'd never do anything else. So: it'll be in the next patch.

So... yes. People are seeing it. Does that mean our small number of testers would absolutely have come across it in the time that it was a bug? No.

Okay, okay... :eek: Thanks for the reply. I only seem to recall seeing a post that this had been fixed. I guess I should have searched before posting...

Anyhow, I know you guys are busy and I really wasn't expecting a hotfix. When you said this earlier, "The red button crash bug is relatively rare", I began doubting my failing memory (due primarily to mi edad avanzada, not to mention mucho tequila in an earlier life ). I thought maybe this wasn't going to be patched. Thanks again for the clarification.

Overall, the game is excellent! For such a small team with a limited budget, what you guys have produced is amazing. Dollar for dollar, this game has provided far more enjoyment than any other game I've purchased... and there have been a lot dating back to Tactics II and Blitzkrieg.

[Guest]

@Ranger33: I've seen the tech support forum. And help desk. I know precisely how big this bug is in comparison to our player base. Hotfixing requires that we set aside EVERYTHING else we're doing, for weeks, to put out a fix for one bug.

Don't conflate "I and a number of people I've heard from are affected by this bug" with "everyone has this bug". If everyone was coming across a crash bug while playing we would absolutely hotfix it. Everyone is, however, NOT coming across this. Will we fix it? Yes. But we're not going to set aside a month of production to get the fix out.

[zmoney]

@Ranger33: I've seen the tech support forum. And help desk. I know precisely how big this bug is in comparison to our player base. Hotfixing requires that we set aside EVERYTHING else we're doing, for weeks, to put out a fix for one bug.

Don't conflate "I and a number of people I've heard from are affected by this bug" with "everyone has this bug". If everyone was coming across a crash bug while playing we would absolutely hotfix it. Everyone is, however, NOT coming across this. Will we fix it? Yes. But we're not going to set aside a month of production to get the fix out.

Phil are you being serious???? Not everyone is having this problem? I don't see how anyone playing the Engle campaign isn't having the problem. Is it computer specific? And if this is a minor rare bug then what's a common big bug?

[Rake]

Same problem here with the Engel campaign. But remember, Rake, there are lots of other campaigns. And scenarios.

Yes, yes... and that's why I hadn't been one of the posters who complained in the past. It just so happened that, immediately after the first occurrence in the first Engel scenario, I stumbled across a post about the red button issue. As I stated in a follow-up post to Phil, I got the impression that fixing this was a low priority item. I'm happy to see that it's been fixed, pending release of the next patch.

I'm also starting my first ever game against a human opponent... going all the way back to CMBO. So, there must be something that I like about this game. I'd expect that QB's will follow soon, something else I've never tried.

The red button issue is not a game-breaker for me... there actually are no game-breakers for me. And (this is not a complaint, just an observation), there are other things that concern me more than the red button crash, tank-infantry spotting being one. Still, until things are patched (or not), I'm going to continue enjoying the time that I have to play the game.

If I didn't enjoy the game, I wouldn't be playing it and I wouldn't be here reading and talking about it. Thanks for your reply

[Rake]

Phil are you being serious???? Not everyone is having this problem? I don't see how anyone playing the Engle campaign isn't having the problem. Is it computer specific? And if this is a minor rare bug then what's a common big bug?

As I understood Phil, the cause of this bug was introduced into the program with a some late changes. He also said that it has to do with a certain wire configuration. From this, I can understand why it might not have been picked up by testers prior to release.

I don't think he said this was a minor bug, just that it takes a combination of things to cause the crash. Those that have the time to complete the setup and start a scenario without saving will not see this bug.

Would I like to see a hotfix right now? Certainly. Is that going to happen? Nope! Can I wait for the fix with the release of the patch?. I guess I'll have to wait. Meanwhile, I'll keep playing scenarios that don't crash. Campaign Engel will still be there, hopefully along with a few more by the time the patch is released

[Guest]

Phil are you being serious???? Not everyone is having this problem?

Yes. I am being serious.

On a related note, this is precisely the sort of comment I expect if we were to attempt to explain all existing bugs. It's not precisely unhelpful, but it certainly doesn't seem like an optimal use of my time or yours.

I don't see how anyone playing the Engle campaign isn't having the problem.

Not to put too fine a point on it, this is why *I'm* answering this question, and you're not. Not everyone uses the game they way that you do.

Is it computer specific?

It is specific to PBEM games. And games where players save during setup, and then load those saves to continue playing. So it is specific to a particular play style.

As Rake says, nowhere did I say this was an unimportant or "minor" bug, and if I gave that impression I would like to correct it. I wouldn't have set aside time to fix it ASAP if I didn't feel it was important. It *is* relatively rare, though. There's a massive gap between "important and rare" and "must be hotfixed", for reasons which I've explained.

And if this is a minor rare bug then what's a common big bug?

The 1.01 Lion bug, where every Mac player with OSX Lion could not start the game at all due to installer issues. I spent nearly a month last summer making a hotfix for that. *That* was a common bug.

[Ranger33]

It is specific to PBEM games. And games where players save during setup, and then load those saves to continue playing. So it is specific to a particular play style.

Which is a roundabout way of saying "Yes, it is present for everyone." We all know exactly what causes the bug and how to get around it. The question was whether it was particular to certain hardware or a corrupt install or some such.

I think this is where you guys run into the most trouble with the community, by trying to be cryptic about everything so you can shed the best light on an issue.

[Guest]

Which is a roundabout way of saying "Yes, it is present for everyone."

No, I meant precisely what I said, which is that it is specific to a particular play style. Start putting words in my mouth and this conversation will end.

We all know exactly what causes the bug and how to get around it. The question was whether it was particular to certain hardware or a corrupt install or some such.

The issue is even less common as a complaint than hardware or installation issues, and that is the point I was making. It is specific to one way of playing the game, on some maps, with some wire configurations. It is not a common problem.

I think this is where you guys run into the most trouble with the community, by trying to be cryptic about everything so you can shed the best light on an issue.

I'm not being cryptic. I'm giving you a straight answer. I have given you said answer several times. I will repeat it, in summary and very slowly, so there can be no mistake: It is rare. It is important and has been fixed. It is not common enough, however, to warrant a hotfix patch.

[zmoney]

Phil, believe it or not I’m not losing sleep over this issue and I don’t mean to come off that way or rude. I just don’t know how to sugar coat my issue and still say what I’m trying to explain so please don’t get upset.

My problem is that this game is a great game like CMSF and you guys have charged accordingly and I have paid. When this game was released I didn’t notice any major bugs that I can think of but each subsequent patch that has been released there have been quite noticeable bugs released with the patch (my opinion). In my opinion patches are to fix problems not introduce new ones and if they do they are fixed quickly. It’s not like we get a patch a week for this game if that was the case I wouldn’t have a problem.

I just don’t won’t this game to turn into what happened with CMSF, which was, long periods of non-playability due to annoying/game breaking bugs. May not be game breaking to you or anyone else but I purchased my game so if it is bothering me even if I’m the only one (which I’m not) I will voice my opinion because again this game wasn’t free. You don’t know how many concessions I had to make to my wife to buy this game so I want it to be perfect in what time I have to play it.

Again you and the others have done a great job with this game over all.

[Ranger33]

No, I meant precisely what I said, which is that it is specific to a particular play style. Start putting words in my mouth and this conversation will end.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. The bug DOES exist in every single install of the game, correct? However, like most other bugs, it only occurs under a certain set of circumstances.

My point is just that you try to frame the issue differently, by initially saying the bug is "rare", but then when pressed further, qualifying that by saying that it only happens to some people because it is "specific to a particular play style." Which all might be perfectly true, but is still a very roundabout way of stating "Bug X will always occur if you do Y, regardless of hardware, software, etc." As opposed to other "rare" bugs where the bug is rare because doesn't always happen or only happens to people who have a particular hardware setup.

Well, I've kicked the hornet's nest enough for today, time to go play the game. (Which I greatly enjoy and praise across the internets)