How to maximize the effectiveness of Shermans against Panzers using bocage

[BadgerDog]

After considerable play time with this game (I stress it's a game), I think I've found a good strategy of maximizing the effectiveness and kill ratio of your Sherman tanks, if you're playing as allies.

First of all, it really doesn't matter what kind of Sherman you pick, but this tactic only applies to scenarios with lots of bocage.

So, here goes….

German tanks, Stugs, Jagdpanzers etc, all suffer from an inherent game deficiency in their usage during battle maps that employ a lot of bocage. I don't know if it applies to Tigers with higher turrets, as I haven't had a lot of playing time with them.

The essence of the winning tactic, is to take advantage of the way the game uses LOS and for efficiency of coding, models what you see from your side, when you view a Sherman sitting behind bocage. Pull your Sherman up as tight as you can to the bocage. Even then, the sighting telescope of the master weapon is behind the bocage foliage itself, so in real life, the gunner would never be able to see anything unless they cut a hole with a chainsaw thought the sight line of the gunner's telescope.

It appears from the Sherman's point of view that the tank is hidden in behind the bocage and perhaps only the gun barrel is protruding. However, I assume that this is only some kind of graphical representation of what is actually going on within the coding. I say that because the gunner's sighting telescope and hence the front part of the turret, must be sticking out through the bocage to the other side since the LOS for the Sherman has a clear field of view. On the other hand, perhaps since the Sherman's silhouette height (being greater than the German vehicles I mentioned earlier), permits the Crew Commander's LOS view to be clear, it's somehow mathematically tied to the LOS of the master weapon for coding efficiencies? I guess it's possibly an artifact of coding for current processing power using a simplified grid square approach to the game showing less, but representing something more. It really doesn't matter as it is what it is…..

Now, to the point ….. if you're the Sherman player, your advantage is that you can see the German vehicle, whereas they're LOS can't see you.

For whatever reason, even if they're also up tight pressed into the bocage, they only see bocage on the other side, not the Sherman behind it, which has a good LOS on them. Why, I don't know. Maybe the fact that the German CC's LOS is lower because his turret is lower behind the bocage and so it's blocked, which affects how the software code shows what's out in front? However, that contradicts the LOS shown to the German vehicle which is BLUE right up to the bocage where the Sherman is hiding behind, yet the Sherman can't be seen.

Anyway, I'm not looking to start an uproar and I haven't any further comment, except to say that if you are playing the German side and you see Shermans moving into position behind bocage, do not assume they can't see you behind the same bocage, just because you can't see them.

I've started a vehicle SOP when playing the German side, of backing up when I see that pattern coming in the software code, or if I'm playing the allies (which is not often), I've taken advantage of this anomaly with some great success.

Try it out in a live scenario and let me know what you think.

Just my two cents …

Thanks for listening ....

Regards,

Doug

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting.

[slysniper]

Well, it is not just shermans, I know I have done it with churchhills, stugs and Panthers also.

So I am not sure you are correct in saying it is just a allied advantage.

I agree with the fact that tanks can move up to bacage's and see through them at times, not always. And in general, I have not seen the enemy able to spot them.

But like I said , I just had a stug do the same thing in a game to two enemy shermans. I had to try three times until I found the spot that gave me a view, but it works.

[aka_tom_w]

It may be more an advantage to the human player VS the AI. It could be an Allied tank or a German tank, but it is the clever human player that lines up the tank in the correct position with respect to the Bocage that gives the camouflaged tank the advantage. I can not say this for sure, but I highly doubt the AI is using the same tactic. FWIW

[Sergei]

This isn't true. If you can see them, they can see you. Placing your AFV behind the bocage doesn't change that, once your vehicle gets close enough to the hedgerow to be able to trace a LOS through it it also becomes susceptible to be spotted by enemies on the other side.

It's still a useful tactic to utilize the hedgerows when applicable, because it allows you to readily disengage and relocate by reversing just a few meters.

[slysniper]

It may be more an advantage to the human player VS the AI. It could be an Allied tank or a German tank, but it is the clever human player that lines up the tank in the correct position with respect to the Bocage that gives the camouflaged tank the advantage. I can not say this for sure, but I highly doubt the AI is using the same tactic. FWIW

No, I have never seen the AI do it on its own. But a scenario designer could get it to work

[slysniper]

This isn't true. If you can see them, they can see you. Placing your AFV behind the bocage doesn't change that, once your vehicle gets close enough to the hedgerow to be able to trace a LOS through it it also becomes susceptible to be spotted by enemies on the other side.

It's still a useful tactic to utilize the hedgerows when applicable, because it allows you to readily disengage and relocate by reversing just a few meters.

Maybe true, not sure, I cannot remember losing one in which I have played this way. But that could be because of who gets visual sight first, with the advantage of course being to the tank behind the Bocage.

[Agua]

Wish someone would have told the ai panther in the field last night that it couldn't see the churchill behind the bocage it destroyed. The icons for both were highlighed when selecting either, but the churchill couldn't trace LOS through "target".

[A Canadian Cat]

I agree that nosing into the bocage is a good thing to do. I am not so sure that it has the effect of preventing the enemy from seeing your tank - at least not all the time. I used it to good advantage recently in Huzzar! I had a 76 Sherman at a higher elevation nosed into the bocage and it dueled with a Panther. I checked with my opponent and his Panther could certainly see my Sherman - when it was there. What I did was nose in take a few shots and back off. I repeated that two or three times. Then I had the HQ crew dismount and crawl up to call in some artillery. While the artillery was falling they remounted and nosed in again. Once the dust settled the two tanks took more shots at each other. The hits on the Panther deflected over and over. The "hits" on the Sherman were mostly absorbed by the bocage and a few managed to get to the Sherman but did not damage it. Finally the Sherman connected and KO'ed the Panther.

My opponent says that when the Sherman was firing (which was when it was nosed into the bocage) his Panther could see it - and target it.

Using this tactic certainly allowed my Sherman to come out on top. Several other (burning) Shermans that were not behind the bocage were a testament to that.

[slysniper]

I agree that nosing into the bocage is a good thing to do. I am not so sure that it has the effect of preventing the enemy from seeing your tank - at least not all the time. I used it to good advantage recently in Huzzar! I had a 76 Sherman at a higher elevation nosed into the bocage and it dueled with a Panther. I checked with my opponent and his Panther could certainly see my Sherman - when it was there. What I did was nose in take a few shots and back off. I repeated that two or three times. Then I had the HQ crew dismount and crawl up to call in some artillery. While the artillery was falling they remounted and nosed in again. Once the dust settled the two tanks took more shots at each other. The hits on the Panther deflected over and over. The "hits" on the Sherman were mostly absorbed by the bocage and a few managed to get to the Sherman but did not damage it. Finally the Sherman connected and KO'ed the Panther.

My opponent says that when the Sherman was firing (which was when it was nosed into the bocage) his Panther could see it - and target it.

Using this tactic certainly allowed my Sherman to come out on top. Several other (burning) Shermans that were not behind the bocage were a testament to that.

Well, there is a clear answer to that question.

I think I have been lucky in that I have normally been firing first and either getting kills or backing up if any return fire has come my way. But the return fire has missed, so was not sure if I have been spotted or if they were area firing.