Only Fire when Fired Upon?

[xian]

Is there a way to achieve 'only fire when fired upon' in CMBN? I have tried using 360 degree cover arcs for my scouts to stop them firing when scouting, but then they don't defend themselves if they are attacked.

Is there a way around this?

[black_prince]

You can use the hide command but it reduces spotting abilities.

[Brindlewolf]

Particularly annoying when a tank does this.Spots enemy armour first and not been seen.Great-wait for it ,wait for it,wait for it and................rat a tat tat.

Bloody mg fire?????

One dead tank..................................mine

[xian]

You can use the hide command but it reduces spotting abilities.

Yes I see - but not much good if you are scouting forward towards enemy lines.

[Erwin]

This form of scouting is what causes the controversy re time limits in WEGO.

If you're running scouts forwards, you really want them to HIDE at the end of their movement. (Otherwise, my experience is that that is where they tend to get shot.) But then, that means you need to wait another minute to UNHIDE, look around, and then run to the next "safe-ish" spot to HIDE etc. 15 minutes disappears very quickly just to scout a hundred meters.

I find this "run and spot" technique tends to be more effective than HUNT. HUNT is even slower since you still have to stop and look around for at least 20 secs every 20-30 meters. And also, I find when they HUNT, they are more easily spotted and shot, than the RUN and HIDE tactic. But, run and NO HIDE can be equally fatal.

[akd]

This form of scouting is what causes the controversy re time limits in WEGO.

If you're running scouts forwards, you really want them to HIDE at the end of their movement. (Otherwise, my experience is that that is where they tend to get shot.) But then, that means you need to wait another minute to UNHIDE, look around, and then run to the next "safe-ish" spot to HIDE etc. 15 minutes disappears very quickly just to scout a hundred meters.

I don't see a controversy there because you would never want to "hide" a scouting unit as it would reduce their ability to spot. "Hide" sacrifices everything for maximum cover and concealment. Scouts are quite capable of observing from cover/concealment without any special order. The key is to use units with small footprints (few men, no heavy weapons) and to move them from cover to cover cautiously. Such units are not likely to gain anything by returning fire except at very close range, so a 360 deg. cover arc of 20 to 50m offers a good balance of stealth and self-defense.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

The covered arc is the key. It needs to be short enough to keep them from throwing down with people they can avoid, but long enough to defend themselves if they are seen and attacked.

It will depend heavily on terrain, but akd's 20m to 50m is a good rule of thumb.

[para]

I had some scouts on the upper floor of a building with a cover arc. This was a pbem game.

The Germans came in an killed them because the scouts did not seem to realise they were being approached from behind.

If you have a cover arc facing a partcular direction are the troops not able to hear enemies behind etc

[Glukx Ouglouk]

@ para: AFAIK, if your troops have a covered arc in a particular direction, they will be more likely to spot things in that direction, and less likely to spot things outside of their covered arc. But it's not "all or nothing", it's just higher/lower probabilities.

Also, if one of your units does spot an enemy outside of its covered arc, and if they feel directly threatened (e.g. the enemy is very close), they can chose to ignore the covered arc order and open fire on that enemy. Your units are more or less likely to do that depending on some factors: motivation for sure, and probably experience and C2 status too (if someone can confirm...).

[A Canadian Cat]

Also, if one of your units does spot an enemy outside of its covered arc, and if they feel directly threatened (e.g. the enemy is very close), they can chose to ignore the covered arc order and open fire on that enemy. Your units are more or less likely to do that depending on some factors: motivation for sure, and probably experience and C2 status too (if someone can confirm...).

True. However the more experienced and the more motivated they are the more likely they will stick to the covered arc you gave them. That means that better troops are more likely to fall pray to getting killed from behind if you have a forward facing cover arc.

In general even green troops mostly stick to cover arcs. In the original poster's scenario - being attacked from behind while using pie slice covered arcs are a disaster.

All this means is that to successfully use pie slice covered arcs you better have the backs of your men. If you have a defense in depth and you know that no one can approach from behind without fighting through a horde of other defenders then go for it. But if you have pie sliced covered arcs on a lone unit or a thin line of units then be prepared to watch them die as they ignore attackers coming up behind them.

[Erwin]

Yes, the fewer men in the scout unit, the less they will be spotted. (But, the downside is will they see as much??) Also, scouts should have (minimum length) 180 degree arcs facing the direction of expected enemy.

My experience after playing CMBN a lot, is that if you hunt or run a scout and end movement without a HIDE command, there is a pretty good probability one at least will be sniped - eventually - and without seeing the shooter.

Same deal with a HUNT. I find you HAVE to stop these guys every 10-20 meters for 20+ seconds just so they look around, or again they will simply walk into getting shot (without spotting the shooter). They also need to rest a lot when on HUNT - and this makes for slower progress than the RUN and HIDE tactic. This is a problem in short time-limit scenarios.

I am now experimenting with a RUN and HIDE scout team, while a 2nd scout team watches. Next WEGO turn, UNHIDE the first scout and RUN and HIDE the 2nd scout ahead of the now watching first scout. And repeat... The short time-limit games kinda force one to do this. But, at least when one almost inevitably loses the lead scout(s), the 2nd one should be able to give some idea of where the shooter is.

My theory is that this makes for faster progress in the crucial first 15 minutes when one is trying to figure out where the enemy's picket line is without wasting precious time in short time limit games.

In a longer time-limit game, HUNT is probably the best movement mode for scouts all the time.

What I have found does NOT work, although it is very tempting, is to follow the 2-man scout with the rest of the squad about 10-20 meters or so behind. I have found that by the time you find an enemy, you may have inadvertently committed your squad.

I now think it's best to send the scouts (in pairs of scout units) way ahead and alone, and keep everyone else far back. It's best to find out where there are NO enemy and advance that way, rather than find the enemy and then attempt to advance via that route.

[xian]

Interesting posts. I'm going to try a few of those ideas out.

One other issue - scouts don't have radios and therefore it is hard for them to pass information up the chain of command once they move forward - any tips?

[akd]

It think people are confusing scouting in front of an advance, patrolling and observation/overwatch, and expecting to find a way to have a single unit effectively fulfill all three roles simultaneously. I don't think it matters whether scouts in front of an advance have good C2 or are effective at spotting the enemy (which is why Erwin finds his run/hide method works). Their chief role is to force the enemy to disclose his defensive plan while minimizing risk to friendly forces.

[para]

some good advice guys cheers..learnt something new

[Sublime]

The way I usually advance is with scout teams or groups ahead of the main body- however not too far ahead, at all. I always try to have some supporting troops for when the scouts stumble on the enemy. whether mgs, mortars, or just more squads. Usually the scout team is toast, or you'll at least take a few losses, but I also usually start returning heavy, accurate return fire promptly and quickly. Really knocks the wind out of an ambushe's sails when mortar rounds start landing on the ambushers within a minute of opening fire...