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I'm sure others better-informed than I will chime in, but I would say, "yes."

If my history is correct, FDR felt that it was inevitable, and was looking for a way to get us in to the fight that would also satisfy the isolationists. The Japanese attack gave him just what he wanted, but I don't think the US would have stayed out permanently. The only scenario I can think of might be like the following...

No Pearl Harbor attack. Germans declare an end of hostilities towards the British and a defensive posture only in the West, hoping that the British will agree to a ceasefire, which they eventually do. The Germans and Japanese then concentrate on the USSR. The East front stays engaged until Germany gets the bomb. The USSR then capitulates. The US gets the bomb around the same time, so a cold war begins will the USA and UK free with continental Europe and all/most of the USSR under Axis domination. After that...dunno.

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All you have to do is read about the Greer Incident and a few others like it to know that Roosevelt was doing everything he thought he could get away with to egg on the Germans and Japanese into attacking us. If the Japanese had not attacked there eventually would have been a Lusitania type incident to start it.

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Has our fish n' chips envy gone THAT far? I mean, my god, why don't we just send some special ops boys over there to get the damn recipe or something?

Surely, if we can get OBL, we can at least do a chip shop op to get the real thing for once!

(And in all seriousness, I've lived in London and Edinburgh and British fish and chips are da' bomb. I have never found the like in the States. It is the same in name only.)

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For the U.S.-Japanese side of the question, I recommend reading John Toland's 'The Rising Sun'. It covers the very complex negotiations between the two countries before the Japanese attack, and the issues involved in them. (Then it covers the whole Pacific war.) Note that Germany declared war on the U.S. after Pearl harbor, as their treaty with Japan required, not the other way around.

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is that the 1812 'plans' or a bit later?

I would guess he's thinking of War Plan Red. Canada had a plan for war against the US too.

What I think is that militarys habitually make plans for all kinds of contingencies, including ones they think are highly unlikely.

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Has our fish n' chips envy gone THAT far? I mean, my god, why don't we just send some special ops boys over there to get the damn recipe or something?

Surely, if we can get OBL, we can at least do a chip shop op to get the real thing for once!

(And in all seriousness, I've lived in London and Edinburgh and British fish and chips are da' bomb. I have never found the like in the States. It is the same in name only.)

I visited the UK/Ireland right after college. My buddy and I went into our first "authentic" fish and chips shop in Glasgow. I sauntered up to the counter and ordered..."fish and chips". The lass (it WAS Scotland), asked, "What kind of fish?" and pointed over my shoulder. I turned. There, upon the wall, was 2 storey tall, 30 foot wide, chalkboard filled with 4" writing annotating every kind of fish they had available. I was gobsmacked. (This being the UK.) There must've been a couple hundred varieties listed. I think the only name I recognized was "cod". In that moment, I realized that the US version of fish and chips had nothing to do with fish and chips in the UK.

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For the U.S.-Japanese side of the question, I recommend reading John Toland's 'The Rising Sun'. It covers the very complex negotiations between the two countries before the Japanese attack, and the issues involved in them. (Then it covers the whole Pacific war.) Note that Germany declared war on the U.S. after Pearl harbor, as their treaty with Japan required, not the other way around.

Actually, Germany's treaty with Japan did not require them to declare war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbor -- the Axis pact only required members of the pact declare war if another nation attacked one of the other members. It did not require Germany to declare war on the U.S. in the case of Japan attacking the U.S. first, which was undeniably the case with Pearl Harbor. This is also why Japan was not required to (and in fact did not) declare war on the U.S.S.R after Germany attacked her.

Arguably, one of Hitler's biggest political blunders was immediately declaring war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbor. By late 1941, he was itching for a fight with the U.S., and jumped at the chance. I do think the two nations probably would have ended up at war within weeks even if Hitler's hadn't been so quick on the draw, but his declaration of war made politics a lot easier for FDR by rendering any remaining isolationist sentiment in the U.S. against getting involved in the war in Europe (as opposed to the Pacific) moot.

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I visited the UK/Ireland right after college. My buddy and I went into our first "authentic" fish and chips shop in Glasgow. I sauntered up to the counter and ordered..."fish and chips". The lass (it WAS Scotland), asked, "What kind of fish?" and pointed over my shoulder. I turned. There, upon the wall, was 2 storey tall, 30 foot wide, chalkboard filled with 4" writing annotating every kind of fish they had available. I was gobsmacked. (This being the UK.) There must've been a couple hundred varieties listed. I think the only name I recognized was "cod". In that moment, I realized that the US version of fish and chips had nothing to do with fish and chips in the UK.

Wow--that sounds like an awesome place! It's been over a decade now, but it seems like I remember most chip shops offering around 4 varieties of fish. And as you'll recall--REAL fish. Not like...reassembled fish cube thingie. And IIRC, a whole fish was between five and six pounds. That was a full meal and then some.

And like you said, great variety.

I'm a proud American, but we are kidding ourselves when we say things like, "we have the best food in the world." That's BS. As I recall, British produce was quite good and not too pricey, either. And of course--wonderful beer and excellent cheese. Oh, and I LOVE haggis. I used to work at a pub called The Conan Doyle in Edinburgh. They had a high quality brand. -Ate it often there and other places. Oh, and the cheese and onion pasties at Gregg's Bakers...holy chit were those good! -And only about 60p.

I got to experience the Christmas works in both London (host family) and up near Aberdeen (Scottish girlfriend). Oh, man was the food good!

I live in Japan now (wife is Japanese) and so I get great food all the time. The fish here, as you would expect, is tops. I've even had fish and chips that were pretty close to the real thing.

Man...I'm hungry!

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In the 1930s Prescott Bush and a cabal of industrialists plotted a fascist military coup against FDR, claiming he was too 'socialist' for their tastes. The only reason it failed was because they underestimated the patriotism of the general assigned to lead the takeover. When the war started Charles Lindberg elected to resign his commission rather than fight against Hitler. If you change just a few historical outcomes a few years earlier you have America coming into the war - but on the side of the Germans. If Germany had been given the choice of either Japan or a fascist USA as an Axis partner would they have chosen Japan?

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Churchill et al did make plans to continue the war via "terrorist/spec ops" means should GB be invaded. I don't think GB would meekly surrender or ceasefire.

The US strategic interest was to destroy the Brit Empire so it could replace it. You'll notice how strategic locations changed hands as well as (probably) gold reserves and nuke technology. Heck, all Brits know that most of the US "inventions" around that time were actually British. :)

So long as there was an advantage to keep GB in the fight if only to drain the Third Reich - for the same reasons that the Russians were being supported (why would the Brits send resources to Russia if they were not confident the US would keep replacing em?), the US would continue to support the Brits so it could swoop in and pick up the imperial empire pieces later.

It was not in US interests to have an even more powerful German empire bent on world domination to exist.

Kinda like we're starting to realize re China.

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I live in Japan now (wife is Japanese) and so I get great food all the time. The fish here, as you would expect, is tops. I've even had fish and chips that were pretty close to the real thing.

Man...I'm hungry!

My spouse is Japanese as well, but living in the US. When we go doing the family visits that is some of the best eating I get. Japan has the best all around eating anywhere I have been. They'll probably be the first place to make an authentic Phila Cheesesteak :D

You're a lucky guy. You aren't anywhere near Tsukiji are you? I worked for a company that had an office across the street from the market. Talk about spoiled.

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I would guess he's thinking of War Plan Red. Canada had a plan for war against the US too.

What I think is that militarys habitually make plans for all kinds of contingencies, including ones they think are highly unlikely.

That's the one..you think it would have been highly unlikely Vanir?

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I visited the UK/Ireland right after college. My buddy and I went into our first "authentic" fish and chips shop in Glasgow. I sauntered up to the counter and ordered..."fish and chips". The lass (it WAS Scotland), asked, "What kind of fish?" and pointed over my shoulder. I turned. There, upon the wall, was 2 storey tall, 30 foot wide, chalkboard filled with 4" writing annotating every kind of fish they had available. I was gobsmacked. (This being the UK.) There must've been a couple hundred varieties listed. I think the only name I recognized was "cod". In that moment, I realized that the US version of fish and chips had nothing to do with fish and chips in the UK.

COD!!!! Haddock is the only choice to go with your chips,salt and vinegar mate

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My spouse is Japanese as well, but living in the US. When we go doing the family visits that is some of the best eating I get. Japan has the best all around eating anywhere I have been. They'll probably be the first place to make an authentic Phila Cheesesteak :D

You're a lucky guy. You aren't anywhere near Tsukiji are you? I worked for a company that had an office across the street from the market. Talk about spoiled.

A deep bow to a fellow member of the Japanese Wives Club!

Yes, I am a lucky man, indeed. Like anywhere, quality varies, but I agree--overall, it's the best food in the world. I no longer eat much western food and eat rice (usually the brown genmai) 2 to 3 times a day. Bread is an occasional weekend treat (great bakeries here).

I'm not in Tokyo, but have heard about Tsukiji. I'd like to see it, but the workers there have grown to rather hate the tourists. For some reason, many foreign tourists seem to lose any sense of manners while visiting there and are also oblivious to the fact that it is not actually a tourist site, but a functioning place of business. I remember seeing a report a couple of years ago showing hidden cam video of tourists doing things like spitting on the fish, or putting cigarette butts in it, or stealing one of the motorized carts they use to go for a joy ride. Crazy stuff.

So if you ever do go, don't take offense if the workers give you dirty looks. They've been given a good reason!

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Well, yeah. At what point between the World Wars were the US and the UK ever remotely close to coming to blows?

Not sure i understand your point. If you mean why would they fight, the obvious answer would be that the US felt it could win. Why else devise stategies for a conflict with an ally

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