Japanese Army Mods

[LongLeftFlank]

You missed it; someone, the same person I think came out of nowhere and gave my Makin thread 1 star (Terrible). Now they've done the same here. I'm just curious why I have been singled out for such hatred; it isn't keeping me awake at night though.

I'm just wondering whether there's some Japanese (or Korean) wargamer lurking out there who has grog knowledge that might be useful in this project. Unfortunately, he may also be harbouring some kind of Steiner14 style revisionist agenda -- those people are always the first to scream racism -- and something I posted has rubbed him the wrong way. His first "drive by" seems to date from when I posted that picture captioned "We only see Japs when they're dead and we like it that way." Which is purely a historical reference, not a statement of belief on my part. I cry when I see the pictures of those young Japanese kids heaped up in the Tenauru muck after being slaughtered... such a waste. Becoming a dad has made me a real softie.

[sburke]

You missed it; someone, the same person I think came out of nowhere and gave my Makin thread 1 star (Terrible). Now they've done the same here. I'm just curious why I have been singled out for such hatred; it isn't keeping me awake at night though.

I'm just wondering whether there's some Japanese (or Korean) wargamer lurking out there who has grog knowledge that might be useful in this project. Unfortunately, he may also be harbouring some kind of Steiner14 style revisionist agenda -- those people are always the first to scream racism -- and something I posted has rubbed him the wrong way. His first "drive by" seems to date from when I posted that picture captioned "We only see Japs when they're dead and we like it that way." Which is purely a historical reference, not a statement of belief on my part. I cry when I see the pictures of those young Japanese kids heaped up in the Tenauru muck after being slaughtered... such a waste. Becoming a dad has made me a real softie.

Well hopefully you will at least get a reply to figure out what's up.

Back to your question. I am good with either as a default, but I tend to lean towards the hedgerow if it is a clearer wysiwyg situation. Though without seeing a nice big section, it is really hard to say if I'll like that when I see it.

[sburke]

there, how is that? Never voted on a thread before LOL

[Boche]

AFAIK, ratings dont really count for anything so...dont think you should really care about it

Haters gona hate

PS: I just voted you 5 stars, cos you deserve it.

[Erwin]

The Koreans hated the Japs who were occupiers and treated em as 2nd class citizens (like they treated everyone else actually), so unlikely from there.

[LongLeftFlank]

Absolutely true but I gather there are still quite a few Imperial Japan fanbois in the large Korean gamer community. I'd guess they view the Japanese as relatives (the races are genetically indistinguishable although most Japanese deny that) who had the stones to overrun half of China, run the white colonialists out of Asia and go toe to toe with the superpower for a year and maybe longer had they had better luck at Midway (and changed their naval codes sooner). Just like the Germans have their admirers in nations oppressed by them.

[sburke]

Absolutely true but I gather there are still quite a few Imperial Japan fanbois in the large Korean gamer community. I'd guess they view the Japanese as relatives (the races are genetically indistinguishable although most Japanese deny that) who had the stones to overrun half of China, run the white colonialists out of Asia and go toe to toe with the superpower for a year and maybe longer had they had better luck at Midway (and changed their naval codes sooner). Just like the Germans have their admirers in nations oppressed by them.

Yeah it wasn't like those countries werre getting a whole lot better treatment from the Europeans. The US war against the Philippines is just one example of what had been going on in APAC from the western powers for a few hundred years. Some Japanese been contacted by Independence leaders and had attempted to make material contributions to the Independence war. I would bet for a bit there anyway Japan had quite a few admirers in the Pacific. If the Japanese Army hadn't been so ridiculously brutal they might have actually had better success, then again the same claim can be made for Germany in the Ukraine. The nature of the regime always gets in the way of those what ifs...

[LongLeftFlank]

Well yes, there were some idealists, particularly in Japanese military intelligence, who sincerely believed in Japan's own manifest destiny as benevolent liberator of Asia from the white devils. They set up the Indian National Army, the Burmese Liberation Army, etc. Regrettably the mainstream of the Japanese command had little patience for such notions, being all too eager to step into the shoes of the imperialists, treating the natives as racial inferiors, fit only for slave labour. And of course the (anti-Japanese) Chinese huaqiao populations in SE Asia were subjected to what was more or less genocide -- fortunately they didn't get time to implement that fully. Ironically, a lot of those massacres were carried out by Japanese-directed INA and other native troops, analagous to the role of Ukrainian auxiliaries in the Russian Holocaust.

The brutality of the Philippine insurrection has been overstated in my view and retroactively subjected to modern day moral judgments that even the victims would not have recognized or expected at the time. This was 1903 and 19th century conventions still applied. While armies were no longer expected to burn and loot their way through the countrtside, civilians were not supposed to engage in warfare. And it was still considered acceptable practice in the West to torch native villages that had engaged in "banditry" (guerrilla warfare). Just as soldiers caught in civilian clothes or the other side's uniforms could be legitimately shot.

[Erwin]

The Brits were still doing that sort of thing during the Malaya insurgency. I think during and after that it became increasingly unacceptable. There was some expose story and official apology about Malayan atrocities going on when I was in the UK last May.

[Baneman]

Absolutely true but I gather there are still quite a few Imperial Japan fanbois in the large Korean gamer community. I'd guess they view the Japanese as relatives (the races are genetically indistinguishable although most Japanese deny that) who had the stones to overrun half of China, run the white colonialists out of Asia and go toe to toe with the superpower for a year and maybe longer had they had better luck at Midway (and changed their naval codes sooner). Just like the Germans have their admirers in nations oppressed by them.

Wow, I find that incredibly hard to believe. Especially since Korea has twice been invaded by Japan and both times were treated with major brutality.

And the Japanese military, believing their own propaganda and ignoring/forgetting almost every lesson of war they'd learned over hundreds of years, never had a prayer.

[LongLeftFlank]

The Brits were still doing that sort of thing during the Malaya insurgency. I think during and after that it became increasingly unacceptable. There was some expose story and official apology about Malayan atrocities going on when I was in the UK last May.

The British apologize for everything these days; if it helps people move on that's fine but I personally feel it merely feeds the juvenile and narcissistic nationalism (I suppose there's no other kind) that exists in these countries.

Whatever the Brits did in Malaysia was largely implemented by ethnic Malay forces who never liked their Chinese minorities (rubber plantation workers who had since taken over the entire mercantile sector) and had persecuted them even more harshly under the Japanese. Many though by no means all of these huaqiao took their cues from the homeland, which in 1938-1978 generally meant Maoism; the CPM was virtually all Chinese for its entire existence.

Chinese vlllages in many parts of Malaysia only stopped having shoot on sight curfews in the mid-1980s. When I was there in 1989, 2 elderly Japanese soldiers finally came out of the jungle, having joined their CPM opponents at the time of surrender (and temporary resumption of British rule). Please note that British rule in Malaysia had always been indirect, via treaties with the various Sultans who still nominally rule today; they fully intended to grant independence, and did, but not to a Communist regime; hence the (successful, btw, and a model for what the US later hoped to achieve in Vietnam via "strategic hamlets") counterinsurgency.

[sburke]

It is always someone elses' fault. That is pretty much how the world works. If you can blame some social issue in your country or at least divert the populace's attention with issues now 70+ years in the past - total bonus.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well a unique long term advantage of mainstream Western civilization has been its practice of introspection and reinvention. Even a hidebound and brutal slavery-dependent culture like late Rome embraced the levelling ascetic faith that was Christianity and then imposed it to coopt the barbarians who were overrunning it.

Its infantile twin is reflexive self hatred combined with uncritical adulation of other cultures that are automatically assumed to be far more (select all that apply: Pious / Virtuous / Manly / Egalitarian / Multicultural / Sustainable ) than we Wicked White People. This moral poison afflicts all too many otherwise educated, tolerant and intelligent people and is a source of nonstop amusement to other cultures who suffer no such self-doubts except when, oh, they've been slammed by two atom bombs or sumfink.

[Erwin]

It's an interesting question WHY we in the west seem to be apologizing for everything and allowing such "bad" behaviour from the ME amongst others. We've seen what happens when one gives kids such wide latititude with little responsibility. Why is it ok for adults in other countries (and our own now) to behave badly but we have to "understand" them and allow them, even when they threaten and cause violence and death? My background is East Europe where WE were the ones oppressed for centuries.

[LongLeftFlank]

Interesting; the wireframe (skeleton) .mds files for the original CMBN US and Heer soldiers do not appear to be available (I unzipped all the .brz files and found nothing) for modding or repointing, but those included in the expansion kit can be (Brits, SS, LW, etc.). So after some messing around, I swapped SS for Heer infantry gun units and then repointed the SS wireframe to the Japanese uniform set used by the Brits. The gun crews still speak German, but whatever.

Note that unlike the repurposed British infantry, who aren't wearing any web kit for some reason neither CoonDog nor myself can divine, these repurposed SS are wearing a lot of German gear, although the bayonets and gasmasks can't find their textures (appear blacked out).

But as my Makin scenario is now on the eve of publication, I am pronouncing this mod set good enough and fit for use. Some other modder can take it to the next level if it ain't good enuff for him. I haven't done badly IMHO considering textures aren't my core competency.

[permanent666]

hi i am looking forward to makin atoll but i have a question because i am just playtesting my angaur map again and there is no way that i will change the defenders from british to german.

so what did you do? did you now use the ss instead of the british as japanese or did you just use the skeleton of the ss and would it be possible to swap the 6pdr skeleton with the infantry gun?

and here another one:

is it possible to use your modified coondog textures for the british para skeleton as well?

[LongLeftFlank]

Just to be clear; only the infantry gun crews (see screenie above) are SS. There is no British gun that approximates typical Japanese field artillery better than the German IG guns; 81mm mortars with their high ROF are just too lethal for my scenario. And I didn't want them to have a modern AT gun (the CMBN arsenal contains no 37mms).

Never fear, the Japanese infantry are all British; I will never use Germans for them as their MGs are way too good and they have panzerfausts and assault rifles and other goodies that the IJA/SNLF never dreamed of.

You can certainly use the Para wireframes instead of LW, but I tested both (see page 14 of this thread for screens) and like the look of the LW cut much better, especially the trousers and boots.

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

Rather than disrupt the Direct Fire Mortar thread, I've decided to continue the leIG 18 study here.

It took some doing, but I managed to find a picture of the leIG 18 HE shell (for ballistic analysis) and its separate brass propellant casing. I thought this was a fixed munition, but clearly, it wasn't. Still don't know minimum indirect fire range, though.

Please see the pic (April 23, 2010) by Sturmer78 and the reply by Zunder here.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=145313&start=30

There's more info here, but you have to be registered to look at the images.

http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?739-7-5cm-HE-shell-for-le-IG-18

This little paper, while geared to counterinsurgency warfare, has some fascinating information on the leIG18. I blanched when I read it could, firing directly, reliably put a shell through a house window from a klick out! that's on page 58.

[PDF]

high explosive: Shock Effect in Dismounted Combat - RUSI

www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/storr_RDS_feb2010.pdf

Grogfest (one page) on IGs (from a gaming forum (forgive me, Moon) in which people want the same things we're asking for re IG ability to transition from indirect to direct fire).

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2224595&mpage=1&key=�

Reenactors with a real one, showing DF role and amazing mobility.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

So John, what's the verdict? Would a Lg18 with 73deg max elevation repeatedly smack trees (not redwoods) 40m downrange while shooting at a target 450m away?

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

Here's a short, not entirely accurate video which clearly shows the HE shell for the leIG 18 and its very stubby separate brass cartridge casing.

The War Department's manual German Infantry Weapons

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/infantry/german/germaninfantryweapons.htm

There are five charges for this round, but I still haven't found a firing table. To a first order, though, with the weapon cranked up to 73 degrees, I see no reason why it should be hitting trees 40 meters to the front, but I think we may need to define tree type, in terms of variety, height and limb extent. Rmin for the standard German 8cm mortar is 60 meters (pg. 110, German Infantry Weapons), by way of comparison, this at 1545 mils (86.9 degrees) elevation, Charge 1. You can't elevate that high, so I'd expect Rmin to be at least 20 meters further down range. I can't prove it yet, but I think there's a bug. Recommend you find one of our ballistics grogs and query same. You've got the shell weight and shape, but the MV would have to be estimated by similarity--unless and until we get better data. Max MV (Charge 5) is 730 fps or 222.6 m/sec (Page 136).

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

For those who can't follow John or me, basic geometry would suggest you wouldn't hit trees 40m out (assuming those trees aren't taller than about 130 feet, which is a pretty tall tree) if your gun elevation is 45deg (right triangle) or greater. So the question becomes, do these variable charges John speaks of mean that fire against targets 400m distant is on a flattish trajectory (<45) or an extremely high trajectory (plunging fire) that determines the minimum indirect fire range of the gun?

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

I just spoke to an assistant curator at the National Museum of World War II. The Museum has an leIG 18 in its collection and may or may not have the firing tables. In the limit, I think we can survive with the lowest number from the weapon's range drum, and we should have that as soon as that assistant curator's next visit to the Museum's warehouse. If we get lucky, we may get a whole lot more. I have practically stood on my head to get Rmin, waded through loads of period intel docs on the Web, having read the same in book form years ago, and looked into a bunch of options. While I have no doubt the information exists--somewhere--so far, I haven't managed to unearth it. There are specialist sites, some not even in English, which may have the info sought, but they require registration. Am convinced the period intel documents simply didn't bother to record either Rmin or the firing tables and powder increment data. What's odd is that Infantry Weapons was supposed to teach our guys how to operate the weapons listed. It supplied firing tables for overhead MG fire and the German 8cm mortar, but failed to provide them for the leIG 18 or the sIG 33, though it did provide detailed information on the powder increments, their composition and propellant quantities for the sIG 33.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

Just heard back from the curator at the Museum. Not good!

Hi John,

I stopped by our offsite storage facility on my way in today. It turns out that our 7.5 actually has the range drum from a 10.5 mounted on it. I thought maybe I’d get really lucky and our 10.5 had the 7.5’s drum and they were inadvertently switched, but no such luck. We have two 10.5 range drums. So I doubt that would be of much help to you.

I guess to figure out the minimum range for direct fire you could find the number of rotations needed to arm the shell (36 seems to be a pretty common number), then calculate the time for one rotation and the distance traveled, and so on, but I don’t know where you would find that information either. As for indirect fire, I think your estimate based on the geometry from a mortar is probably about the best you’ll have for now.

We don’t have a manual for the 7.5, and we’ve been looking for one for years. If I do come across anything more helpful, I’ll be sure to send it along. Please do the same for us!

Good luck with your research,

Eric Rivet

Curator

The National World War II Museum

Believe I'll try Aberdeen Proving Ground's Ordnance Museum next! Maybe Curator Gordon Atwater and his people have this incredibly elusive information.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

Well this reminds me of the old story of the preacher and the farmer (basically "bringing a tank to a knife fight), but hey, if it keeps you away from the flying saucer stuff John, go ahead. I guess I lean more towards the empirical test: "what would you need to believe for the shell to hit trees 40m away" but if you can dig up a manual then rock on! Bonus points if it contains cartoons with naked chix....

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

We don't have enough data yet to compute Rmin, so I'm hoping for that info from APG's leIG 18 range drum. Firing tables would be better; a proper weapon manual with all the dope even more so. Failing any of the preceding, we need to know what's in Charge 1 (propellant weight and composition), plus barrel twist ratio, from which, theoretically, someone like ArgusEye can calculate what we need. My ballpark Rmin figure? 80 meters.

Regards,

John Kettler