dieseltaylor Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Green and Green's book "Tank Men" has a German officer saying how in Normandy the Allied tanks would retreat if outgunned and just call on the FB's or the artillery. Of the two FB's were the worst as they would just keeping coming after you - if there were enough of them. He describes a force of Panthers and MkIV's falling prey to this and his tank going up to rockets. German tankers also had an intense dislike of spotter planes which made moving in daylight pretty dangerous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MengJiaoRedux Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 In a way, this points to the beauty of the CMx2 system, rather than the opposite. I agree. I'm just getting back into the game, but one thing I recall from my early days of play is that Panthers had to be pretty careful about not getting suppressed and hit from widely separated firing units. M10s from around 600 meters with a range of angles versus suppressed Panthers did extremely well. For suppression, infantry and MG and mortar fire seemed to work fine even against Panthers and a Panther that can't spot the M10s shooting at it can't knock them out. I'm guessing a fanatical crew might not get suppressed and so they could target even under extreme fire, while lower morale or green crews might be suppressed by Panther shots hitting other tanks near by which would ruin their targetting chances maybe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave85 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Now now, don't get snarky till you have all the details. Note the Panther is elite fanatic and there has already been discussion about what to expect if you set units at that level. Next question- What were the Sherman crews? The sherman company was 'typical' so I assume a mix of vet/reg and green. There was also a single 76mm amongst them which scored several hits. One thing that worked in my favour was that there was a lot of smoke deployed so once it had spread the sherms tended to appear 1, 2 or 3 at a time, but still it seems nonsensical that a crew, no matter how fanatical child killers they were and how long they been on the eastern front could continue to operate their weapons whilst taking such a beating. The funny thing was that of my two other panthers, one was knocked out by a single shot from a 57mm AT gun and the other from a bazooka extreme range shot. In a similar experience with a tiger my tank was knocked out quickley after killing 3 or 4 shermans, infact all three were. I have to say as an AT tank the panther seems far far better than the tiger, which begs the question, why did the huns continue to build the tiger 1 at three times the expense of the superior panther. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The sherman company was 'typical' so I assume a mix of vet/reg and green. There was also a single 76mm amongst them which scored several hits. One thing that worked in my favour was that there was a lot of smoke deployed so once it had spread the sherms tended to appear 1, 2 or 3 at a time, but still it seems nonsensical that a crew, no matter how fanatical child killers they were and how long they been on the eastern front could continue to operate their weapons whilst taking such a beating. The funny thing was that of my two other panthers, one was knocked out by a single shot from a 57mm AT gun and the other from a bazooka extreme range shot. In a similar experience with a tiger my tank was knocked out quickley after killing 3 or 4 shermans, infact all three were. I have to say as an AT tank the panther seems far far better than the tiger, which begs the question, why did the huns continue to build the tiger 1 at three times the expense of the superior panther. Without a save we can conjecture forever, quite vehemently it would appear...I think the imminent release of the CW module may be affecting us all. That being said, the odds of this happening are pretty extreme, but I can't rule it out completely as a one off simply because I haven't seen anything close to this happening and guessing from the responses neither has anyone else. So considering the amount of battles we have all played in a year the odds of something like this eventually occuring .. well all I can say is too bad you didn't play the lottery this day instead. I certainly don't think as a one off it somehow invalidates the CMx2 engine. Drawing that conclusion based on one incident we all can't even take a second look at seems pretty presumptive. As to the Tiger/Panther debate, trying to argue logic in the German armaments industry is probably a mistake to begin with, but within that I think Germany viewed the 2 as having different functions. Whether that makes sense or not is probably still another topic of discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yeah. The Tiger was envisioned, built, and deployed as a heavy breakthrough tank. Yes, granted, that's not the way it was /employed/ but that's a different matter Also, the Germans stopped producing the Tiger I /reasonably/ soon after the Panther entered service. Not immediately, of course, but re-tooling factories takes time, and the Tiger I remained highly effective at least until late '44, and arguably till the end of the war. I agree that the 75mm on the Panther probably was a better gun, in the circumstances, than the 88mm on the Tiger I. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 March 26, 1944 Lieutenant Pegov's light tank T-70 killed 2 Panthers from an ambush. So it is possible, calibers are close. (45mm and 37mm) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karabekian Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 However he was very well concealed. The CMBN spotting will make it a lot more difficult for the Stuart. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 On the original topic of a 37mm gun taking out a Panther from 360m, I'm surprised nobody's done a quick test scenario and tested it out. I may do that now. My *prediction* - penetration or no penetration, the Stuart commander is going to soil himself at the sight of the panther, pop smoke and retreat before getting a firm kill. Now off to test my prediction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Back again. I misunderestimated the resolve of my TC. No crapping his pants, no popping smoke, no backing away. Just a clean hit through the turret rear from 360m. As the Panther tried to escape he got a partial penetration on the lower hullside at about 40 degree angle then a solid hullside penetration as the tank turned broadside. But the Panther managed to escape to behind a building before being KO'd. ...Ran the test another 4 times. Easy rear and broadside penetrations. The smallest angle makes it more problematic, though. And even the penetrations do little damage besides panicking the crew. That was fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Sounds right result. However I have a suspicion that the highest rate of fire for a Stuart is not modelled in game. This small test might also reveal what the reaction time was for a shot into the back of a tank. A fully trained Stuart crew in theory would do 20 rounds per minute so allowing for a shot every 4 seconds I would be surprised that the Panther would not take several shots before reacting. Any timings MikeyD.? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hmmm, I didn't time it but the certainly weren't pumping out the rounds. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I was running in realtime and could quit whenever I wanted, a WeGo player might area target something like a building and with a high ROF watch his ammo stocks drop bang-bang-bang without being able to stop them. Oh, and two man turrets with the TC as loader would mean he's not keeping an eye peeled while loading. There's been talk for years about introducing an initial high burst rate of fire then slowing down as the ready rack runs out and the loader gets fatigued. Their wish list is very long and their programmers have a lot to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilts Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Well, I tried it. The Stuart moved into position and paused for 10 seconds before reversing. During this time the green crew got one shot off which achieved a rear upper hull penetration but without any apparent effect. As the Stuart was reversing the Panther was already starting to turn. I wonder if my oppo is reading this. lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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