GreenAsJade Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Deep in another thread, I recently read "On all levels (except maybe Basic?) troops who are out of C2 will experience and respond to things and you may not be shown them". I was gobsmacked by this. I have since seen that it is true, and it explains a chunk of frustrations I've had with the game. Men suddenly cowering for no reason is the main one. Or, to put it another way: apparent failure to spot stuff.... ...it's not that your units didn't spot it, it's that the game isn't showing you! It makes the idea of scouting a much more dubious proposition. I haven't figured out whether I should get over being gobsmacked and learn to like this, or rail against it Either way, worth being aware of. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I am dubious that any such feature is in the game, at least intentionally. The idea that spotted enemy units are randomly invisible to the player makes no sense and seems to run counter to CM's design philosophy. If that is in fact happening I have yet to see it, and if I did I would think it's probably a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I have an example right now. I have some scouts, who I sent to a place where the briefing told me to expect enemy reinforcements. Suddenly, for no apparent reason, they cowered and the only thing I see is sound contacts. Then the enemy tanks started firing at them - I see the explosions, but still no spotting of what's shooting (this could be attributed to no LOS due to cowering). Then running away. Still only the initial sound contacts visible. This feels so broken to me. If it's due to the reason above, at least I can understand the mechanics of it (your guys spotted the tanks, cowered, but you don't see them due to out of C2). If this isn't the reason, what is?? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Units will take cover from shooting and explosions near them that originate from unspotted enemy units (as well as friendly units). It's not clear from your description if this is what is happening but I think it the most likely explanation. A definitive example of an enemy unit being spotted but not shown would be friendly units opening fire on it. To the player it would appear his unit was initiating area fire without orders to do so. I have never seen this happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'd say that is almost certainly due to low morale and not to do with depriving the player of information. I did a test a while ago: a single team 4km out of contact with no radio spotted enemy units and I was given the icon/info immediately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1337408&postcount=35 It's definitely in there, in some form. I'm totally fine with it, but wouldn't mind a more thorough explanation of how it works, how long the delay is, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well that is very interesting. Because... Did you notice that sometimes soldiers will fire at an enemy you cannot see? I haven't. Ever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I haven't. Ever. Really? I see that in almost every game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'll pay closer attention and see if I find examples of this. Tomorrow I may make a test scenario to see if I can catch an example of this. What I do know is that I have run hundreds of tests with tanks firing at each other for various reasons and have never seen a tank open fire on another before the targeted tank appeared on the screen. Frankly I find whole idea of enemy units randomly being invisible to the player disturbing. The player is not part of the chain of command so it's hard to see what part of the C2 model this would represent. It also runs counter to the design philosophy that in CM the player isn't any one particular command, but is the commander of every individual unit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I totally agree with you Vanir. This is how it feels to me too. I don't recall ever seeing troops firing at something I can't see (except in the case where troops keep firing after their target disappears). Howver, I often see behaviour that is hard to understand, and would be explained if the soldiers could see a threat that I can't... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I have also seen units firing at 'invisible' targets and often wondered if it was just a soldier emptying a clip or something like that. It usually happens after a target has been spotted in the vacinity, or after gunfire has been exchanged. What difficulty level do you play? I use Warrior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 If you're squads have been engaging an enemy squad and the enemy squad can no longer be seen (so you would see a <?>), your squads will keep firing at the location for a while. It was an AI improvement from CMSF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karabekian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Im curious how the spotting works. Does a unit have a single "point" from where the "spotting" is originated from, or multiple? I constantly have AT guns that see the enemy (when I click them they have direct LOS to a tank) but the gun is not able to target the enemy? Is it so that one of the crew sees the tank, but not the gunner? To be clear, all units on even ground, so the gun has enought traverse to aim at the enemy directly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Im curious how the spotting works. Does a unit have a single "point" from where the "spotting" is originated from, or multiple? I constantly have AT guns that see the enemy (when I click them they have direct LOS to a tank) but the gun is not able to target the enemy? Is it so that one of the crew sees the tank, but not the gunner? To be clear, all units on even ground, so the gun has enought traverse to aim at the enemy directly. Each soldier spots and shoots individually. Sometimes you'll see only one or two guys from a squad shooting while the others can't see the target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's definitely the case that units keep firing at a target after it goes to ground (and therefore you, and maybe them too, can't see the target). I have no problem with that. It's opening fire on something I can't see, or cowering from something I can't see, that is the thing that this thread is about... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's definitely the case that units keep firing at a target after it goes to ground (and therefore you, and maybe them too, can't see the target). I have no problem with that. It's opening fire on something I can't see, or cowering from something I can't see, that is the thing that this thread is about... GaJ I *think* I've seen one or two guys from a squad shooting at stuff without me knowing what it is, but never a whole squad. There is also this bug where squads from a same platoon are telepathically connected to each other. If one get mauled badly the other will lose morale. Anyway it helps to explicitly say what is in the game, so that it is easier to narrow down things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 *Sigh* You know guys, the Search function is a really useful thing. Just run a few searches for recent posts by the BFC guys, do a little reading and you'll can discover some really interesting stuff about the game. On topic, here's a quote from a recent post on this topic by Moon: You may be seeing C&C in action, rather than spotting. Did you notice that sometimes soldiers will fire at an enemy you cannot see? That's because they're out of contact and you, the player (and the commander) only get the info with a delay. But the TacAI sees (and acts) independently of that. From this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=102251&page=4 But if there's any further doubt as to whether this feature exists in the game or not, I'm pretty sure I have a save of a recent game where an out-of-C2 scout teams starts firing completely of it's own accord (i.e., without any target order) at a location where I (the player) can see no enemy contact of any kind, not even a "?" contact. Eventually, the contact does resolve, and I am able to see the enemy team onscreen, but only after a delay. I'll try to dig up the file and post a pic or two tonight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sounds like in this situation, your scouts did their job. You received a sound contact and you saw your scouts cowering. When you see this happening you know the enemy is on the way and its time to bug out. If you need more solid intel then have them stick around or move to another location and try to improve the sighting .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This all seems to hinge on being out of command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Had a squad near an enemy mortar which had only a ? as to that squad's intel. The mortar began firing and the squad immediately went to ground cowering. The round landed right next to them. No other unit firing on them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 *Sigh* You know guys, the Search function is a really useful thing. Just run a few searches for recent posts by the BFC guys, do a little reading and you'll can discover some really interesting stuff about the game. On topic, here's a quote from a recent post on this topic by Moon: *Sigh* That quote by Moon was already posted on the first page. I'll try to dig up the file and post a pic or two tonight. I would appreciate that. I'm going to set up a test later tonight and see if I can replicate this behavior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well that is very interesting. Because... I haven't. Ever. Man, if you've never noticed this then you're either playing zoomed way out all the time, in real time, or have all your troops in perfect C2 all the time (or a combo of all three). I've noticed it a lot, usually in playback of WEGO when I have time to zoom in close and pay attention to the details of the action. However, I've always reasoned that it was because it was a partial contact by part of the squad. Now I know it's because my team isn't in C2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I tend to play large battalion + sized battles, so I do not pay real close attention to every individual squad. However, I don't think I would have missed a tank opening fire on an invisible enemy tank. I track practically every shot my armored vehicles take. If this is in fact an undocumented feature that would be a significant step in the direction of making CM more of a command level game. That surprises me since BFC have steadfastly resisted requests to do that in the past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 I wonder if this applies to AFVs? Aren't they usually in C&C, much more likely, due to radios etc? Any other annecdotes I've read about this are to do with Inf. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Was it like this in CMSF? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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