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Frustrating Learning Curve


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I've played the tutorial campaigns, read the manual, played a half-dozen quick battles, and now I'm playing a couple of scenarios, and I keep getting wiped the f*** out, having to restart, rinse repeat. It seems I can only solve these puzzles by failing at every possible permutation.

I'm kind of having two problems: spotting, and understanding small arms damage/cover from small arms.

I'm only working on two scenarios, one I "cracked" and one I'm throwing my hand up in disgust at. Either might have been downloads (I downloaded tons of files before I started playing scenarios, so I don't know which are originals shipped with the base game).

Pleasantly Shaded Wood (cracked) and

A Delaying Action

"PSW" was an infantry only game, and I beat that on the third try simply because I figured out where the defenders were in the first two, and I stacked the deck for a cheap win in the third. I'll refer to this game because I got decent experience with small arms combat.

"A Delaying Action" is basically an open map with German AT defenses awaiting 4 Shermans and a company of infantry. It's driving me crazy.

Even with infantry and tanks moving together, I'm not seeing AT guns until they're blowing up a Sherman, and the AT guns are literally in the open. What does one have to do to spot something without holding up a 'shoot me' sign?

I'm a former tank crewman so I understand hull-down, bounding overwatch, buttoning up, etc., and I'm a veteran CM1 player (with many years break). I'm not just charging tanks around like this is an RTS. I'm getting really tired of tackling one layer of a defense, only to be shredded by the second and having to reload. It's destroying the real strategies of tackling scenarios.

I've been moving infantry and tanks across an open field together, bounding. Infantry isn't seeing enemies in buildings until within 40 meters, at which point the squad falters at the first enemy team's 2-man rifle fire... If I get into a building, it's like it's worse than lying prone in a grass field - they provide no protection. In fact the only thing I've seen thus far that provides decent cover against small arms are trenches (which the Germans have in Delaying Action), bocage, and stone walls (but the first HE round drops those like dominoes).

I only had to cover about 120 meters of field, which I took about 12 minutes to do by bounding slowly. I took out one 88mm via being hull down and extremely long range (500 meters) with direct Sherman fire, and the rest of the damage I achieved was done by artillery.

I'm very frustrated with the spotting algorithms in this game so far:why am I so apparently easy to see and hit and they are so much harder to see (not all that much harder to kill, except in the tank/AT gun battle, which I know is supposed to favor surprise), but why is my infantry not seeing ANYthing when not under any fire at all?

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As a relatively new player myself i'll try and add some enlightenment,maybe more experianced players will give u a better clue

I'm a old CMBO-onwards vet and came to CMBN feeling quite 'cocksure' of my uber command skills...relative spotting soon taught me i was wrong.

It now seems much more important for A) The unit spotting to be in good C2, preferably all the way up the com net. B) Take lots of time, sit a spotter in a good position and give him 2-4 turns to identifly targets..always seems to take longer that u think it should. C) Use units with binoculars for spotting they do a much better job.

Hope some of that helps...also if it's any consolation you often won't see well concealed troops till they fire on you, so splitting squads helps stop u losing the whole lot in a ambush/unexpected firefight

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There certainly is a learning curve to a successful outcome playing this game, but it is achievable if you stick at it. It took me a fair while and I was used to playing Shock Force.

A few things to consider in your approach. I'm not teaching you to suck eggs by the way, just a few little things I have discovered along the way.

Do you play WEGO or RT, and what level do you play? Try WEGO and lowering the difficulty to begin with.

-If you can see the enemy they can potentially see you. The AI doesn't cheat.

-Play the game slowly. Very slowly. Slow it down if you can even just to practice. Your infantry will spot providing they are not hidden and they are facing the potential target. They also need time to spot. A couple of minutes usually in a prone position.

-Keep command over all your units where possible. Split your teams by all means but make sure the HQ has overall control. Units under effective command will spot more efficiently.

-Use combined arms where possible. Always keep a MMG or a HMG team with your infantry squad covering and a 60mm mortar in the direct fire role is suppression hell for the enemy.

-Buildings do offer suitable cover and protection BUT it is important to realise how they 'group' in the buildings. If you have a 12 man team on the same floor, they are going to get shot up pretty quickly. Your men will look for the windows. Split your team on different levels.

-Use cover arcs all the time.

-If you can't spot AT guns (and they can be difficult to spot) then you are not using recon effectively. Get some scouts up front and probe the areas of interest prior to sending your armour in.

These are just a few things. I'm still learning the ropes myself.

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A) The unit spotting to be in good C2, preferably all the way up the com net. B) Take lots of time, sit a spotter in a good position and give him 2-4 turns to identifly targets..always seems to take longer that u think it should. C) Use units with binoculars for spotting they do a much better job.

Do you play WEGO or RT, and what level do you play? Try WEGO and lowering the difficulty to begin with.

+1000

Don't wait to see the enemy units. You see a "'?" icon? Fire on it. You expect / sense an enemy unit it's in some place ? Area fire. Use your fire power on expected enemy positions

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CMBN does have massive and frustrating learning curve.

The best thing I can suggest, reading the OP's post, is to hunt down the threads that have info about the cover value of buildings: there are movies showing bullets fired at walls etc.

Once you've seen those, your outlook on what cover buildings _should_ provide will likely be different, and you will largely ignore houses as anything other than a piece of cardboard that blocks LOS... this will reduce one frustration at least...

GaJ

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All of the above are good points. I usually play WeGo, Elite, to put what follows into perspective.

You need EYES up front. That means splitting off scout teams. (Admin, Scout) They will spot based on experience, equipment, and time. The higher their experience, the better they'll spot. By equipment, I mean binoculars. :) Time: the longer they scan the terrain, the more they'll spot.

Only move a small fraction of your men at a time. Ooze, don't charge.

As a former tanker (you, not me), think about ambush points. Get eyes on them from cover/concealment.

Sometimes you'll have no choice but to put men out as bait. :) (Oops, I hope my men didn't hear that.) Make sure you've got overwatch set up before the bait leaves cover.

If you have artillery, depending on the amount, etc., perhaps pre-planned fire on likely defensive points would help. Or use smoke instead.

And sometimes, none of this works. You may not have the time or the forces to do this. In that case, the advance will cause casualties.

Keep playing, you'll do better and better as you learn these lessons.

Ken

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The best thing i can suggest is to take a look at the Armchair General videos. They are useful in learing hot to fight in WWII.

Personally, i came from a long time napoleonic experience and so it was not easy understanding how to advance. But those video are useful in my opinion.

About your AT, scouting ahead with some men is the best way. Never advance with intantry and armor without having probed first.

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I can't +1 enough Phil's recommendation to slooooow things down. When I started playing very slowly things started to improve markedly. Letting your recon units have time to scope things out made a big difference. I am talking a couple of turns minimum. Also, the more eyes you have on the target area the better. Don't bring up the tanks until they have something to shoot at.

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Hi,

Just to further enforce what many have said above.

Slow and careful is the way to learn. Slow and careful “micro-management..” is the way to learn the game. Then you can speed up later.

Pay no attention to game length. If a scenario ends before you have finished... fine just play another. If you know how I would go into the editor and increase the length of scenarios then play them. I “always...” do that. Set them to two plus hours and just call a Ceasefire when you are done with a scenario.

When you can master CM playing slowly and carefully you will find you can speed up play.

I enjoy micro-management anyway... ;).

All the best,

Kip.

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As also a new player, I guess there isn’t a classical learning curve for CM. First you learn the basic commands, specially the unintuitive ones (like hiding or the combined ones, as assaulting a building). From there, is mostly watching AAR’s, youtube tutorials, contemporary field manuals and following the forum.

Besides, I don’t think that “cracking” a battle is the right approach. You develop a battle plan and do your best to execute it flawlessly. Sometimes you’ll do fine, sometimes it will be a disaster. The important thing is to learn from your mistakes and avoid doing the same things in the future.

Pleasantly Shaded Wood was one of my first battles, and I did lots and lots of brutal errors. I sent whole riffle squads following my scouts path, just to discover there was a minefield. I set up a line in the middle sunken road, discovering this was the worst cover position ever. I prepared my final assault doing a mortar barrage that went too short and took out almost a third of my assaulting platoon. At the end, I sent that platoon on a massive assault only to expose them to a MG42 at their flank, taking heavy casualties. At that point I decided to just let it go and cease fire. I still got a minor victory…

The main point being that if I replay the same battle today I would do a lot better, not because I would know where the enemy is but because I’ll know how to play the game better…I guess that is the only learning curve possible for CM…

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To add to the other points, which I agree with completely, any unit that starts the battle Hiding gets a stealth bonus. This makes them even more difficult to spot.

Good point to remember when you start defending. Hide at start and do not even twitch until you are ready to open up.

The building cover issue is known and can be addressed in the editor by wall-wrapping with low walls.

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I'm getting really tired of tackling one layer of a defense, only to be shredded by the second and having to reload.

Umm... isn't that the entire notion of 'defense in depth'? Mutually supporting positions, etc? IIRC, it was SOP for Germans to register their own front line positions with the arty in case they were lost (and some scenario/campaign designers use that to brutal effectiveness).

I *try* to use a 2/3 up, 1/3 back attack, and 'scout, assault, consolidate, repeat'. And there is usually plenty of time in a battle, and I have to remind myself to slow down...

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Reading all you guys wrote above, it seems clear how realistic it is CMBN. It is NOT easy to master the art of war, otherwise masterpiece like Cannae, Agincourt and Austerlitz would not end with the victory of the weaker side (in numbers and weapons). By the way, as we say here in Italy, "nessuno nasce imparato" (nobody comes to life learned), so learn your lessons in blood! :)

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Regarding anti tank guns the Germans and everyone else in the European War found the AT guns were a serious problem by 1943 or even earlier for the very reasons mentioned earlier (lethality to tanks and difficulty of spotting) Tactics were developed to deal with these problems sucgh as sending the infantry in first and keeping the tanks on overwatch, using smoke on likely AT poitions and calling in artillery. In short you needed a combined arms approach to the problem in order to even survive, let alone to win on the late WW2 battlefield.

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Oh, and wait until you run into the Hiding 150mm siG33.

Cloaking device(tiny gun shield and small firing signature) and can reduce a platoon nicely in one shot.

If either(75/150) Infantry Gun is well-placed, an enemy can stare at the spot all he wants and still not get more than a sound contact for enough turns to cause major havoc.

----

Scout Teams(in C2 ofc) on Hunt may help reduce casualties as well.

Better to lose two than twelve.

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CMBN does have massive and frustrating learning curve.

WAR does have a massive and frustrating learning curve. :)

Kip,

Slow and careful is the way to learn.

+1,000,000. Most new players coming from twitchy RTS or FPS games will attempt to play way too fast, and will find CM frustrating. You will need a longer attention span and will have to learn not to expect the instant gratification that most mainstream games are programmed for these days. In other words, learn to slow down and cope with losses. :)

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at the same time things like the 88mm, either in cruciform or AT role are so gigantic they'll get spotted almost every time. and levelled by artillery. however i did play shultz in his valley of the shadow and he had a 150mm gun somewhere on my left up ahead. he prolly got about 60+ casualties shooting at my right flank, and i still dont know where he put the goddamn gun.

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In terms of playing the GAME, all the above points are very good and helpful. The only issue that is disturbing that nobody picked up on is that the original poster is a RL tank CO, and doing things the way he was trained doesn't appear to work for him. What does that imply re the accuracy of CMBN as a sim?

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Also regarding AT spotting, in the Spanish Civil War, a common tactic among republican “engineers” (mostly miners with explosive experience) was to lay down until tanks bypass them and then throw some dynamite at them from the rear. Bear in mind that AT crews are not large units, but 1-2 soldiers, which are much more difficult to spot if well hidden.

BTW, it might be a long time before one totally avoids making stupid mistakes. Just, today I sent a sniper team to the top of a church tower hoping they could have a panoramic view of the field. Actually, they succeeded spotting most of the enemy force, since every German in town started to shoot at them. They lasted less than 20 seconds…:(

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So, RL training is of no use in playing CM. Ok...

There are quite few members of the testing team who can put "former" in their title, and several that can use "current". Some of their experience translates, but I think they all have to learn just like everyone else does. They certainly don't hold back when they think the game has something wrong or has turned real world tactics on its head.

Yet you think if one former tanker finds the game difficult, it proves something is fundamentally wrong. Silly, silly remark.

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In terms of playing the GAME, all the above points are very good and helpful. The only issue that is disturbing that nobody picked up on is that the original poster is a RL tank CO, and doing things the way he was trained doesn't appear to work for him. What does that imply re the accuracy of CMBN as a sim?

It implies that WW2 ground combat is different from 2011 ground combat?

You guys should have seen the training exercise Steve attended last year. Actual company commanders were getting slaughtered in CMSF. What it shows if you ask me is that there is a training gap that CM would help fill in today's military training (and it does so in some very limited classroom settings, in fact), nothing else.

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Plus some people just arent good at computer games. thats all.

Seriously though, the biggest things I can suggest to improve playing are splitting the infantry squads. This is realistic like real life - almost every combat account I read stresses the need for men to spread out.

Second, like everyone else said- SLOW DOWN. if you rush, you'll take heavy losses. the time to rush is when incoming arty is coming, or a critical moment in the attack. Otherwise, take your time. Dont use your tanks to scout. They'll report enemy contact by exploding.

Break off scout teams from squads or use the dedicated ones. Let your troops sit between move orders and just look around. Often it takes a couple minutes to spot things.

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