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Panzerfausts.. My experience in CMBN/Tactics Advice


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RE: the Hiding versus normal stance issues.

TERRAIN is the factor here. Put an AT team in a number 4 field.... then put the same team near a wall on grass.

The spotting/firing stance of a unit is linked to both enemy proximity/action and terrain type occupied.

Your zook/shrek teams will fire from a prone position and not be spotted after multiple kills if placed in the proper terrain(screenies available). Fausts I believe HAVE to take a knee to fire, but I will have to test more.

This means a wall, hedge or a tree would probably make the best Faust firing postion I suppose.

Faust teams should be in good order and in best possible C2 to units that can see more of the target approach area.

So maybe a possible scenario could go like this ...

Hide faust behind wall within C2 of spotting units in good concealment.

When armor approaches, unhide faust and send sacrificial unit sprinting in opposite direction to distract tank.

Hope for the best.

Personally, if I am down to hoping a faust30 can save me, it's about over. ;)

Once the 60s show it will be a different world.

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I appreciate all the responses.

Again I wasnt tryin to open an ubertank thread, or say the fausts were unrealistic. I just was making a point about their use.

A little off topic but I have a couple of other questions. The two US bazookas. M1A1, M9A1. I had asked Shultz about this, he said the difference was a more reliable firing mechanism. Any other differences? is this modelled? Also - I remember reading somewhere about the early days in the Korean War, US troops had zook's and they bounced off the T-34/85s (cant wait to control some of those on the Ost Front.. ) They ended up getting upgraded Super Bazookas that had a larger muzzle size. However I believe these 'super zooks' were made for heavy German armor, my question is did they see action against the Wehrmacht? When were they introduced?

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What's the engagement range?

Thanks for the very detailed comment. I´ve just reloaded the turn to check - and the range was 64 meters.

it sure looks substantially longer than 30m... if so, that Landser couldn't possibly have engaged the 'faust.

OK. That might be the root of the problem, as I was under the impression that fausts could be used safely - and relatively accurately - at ranges up to 100 meters. I must have misunderstood something then.

Trying to sneak up on on a tank to within 30m in the tank's frontal aspect is suicide anyway you look at it.

Well, this was OK then, as the range here was 64 meters ;-)

Seriously though: it wouldn´t be suicide if the landser had fired the faust - and hit the Sherman.

Anyway: My main reason for uploading the video was to demonstrate the suicidal behaviour in firing your rifle at a Sherman instead of your faust. In my opinion the landser should have fired the faust - and if that wasn´t possible (due to range it seems) - he shouldn´t have fired at all.

This video is indeed unusual, as the troops are attempting to engage the Sherman frontally. I thought the manouvre would have a reasonable chance of success, as the landsers would be behind a wall and would have the tank in full view as soon as they popped their heads above the egde. But then again I had expected them to use the faust - and didn´t know about the 30 meter limit.

Anyway I uploaded this video because it was the only "footage" I have of a problem I have encountered frequently when playing CMBN: Teams with fausts using small arms instead of the fausts against tanks.

Most of the other occurences have been more "usual" ambushes where the teams have been waiting behind buildings for a tank coming around the corner. As I said at last three out of four times, the teams use small arms instead of fausts. And the result is almost always death. But I can´t tell for sure whether the ranges have been great or smaller than 30, though. As maybe the range is exactly the problem (but then they should IMO hold their fire, in the name of self preservation).

Guess I´ll have to do a test one of these days.

Cheers

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You can tell them to hold fire by assigning a cover arc.

Yes, I know (I assume this was meant for me). But then they´ll hold all fire - also the fausts.

My point is: Why would an infantryman fire his rifle at a tank? It´s pure suicide - at least in CMBN in my experience.

In most AT team situations you would want your team to fire the faust - or nothing at all. Now it is almost opposite: Anything but the faust (which in my case may be partly due to the range misunderstanding mentioned above).

As far as I can tell, the only way(s) to ensure that teams fire only fausts when that is what you want them to do - is to reintroduce the "cover armor" order (and to code more realistic self preservation into the troops in these specific situations).

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Yes, I know (I assume this was meant for me). But then they´ll hold all fire - also the fausts.
Best solution is to segregate your AT assets into AT teams and give them the necessary orders.

My point is: Why would an infantryman fire his rifle at a tank? It´s pure suicide - at least in CMBN in my experience.

They aren't firing at the tank, they are firing at the exposed tank commander.

In most AT team situations you would want your team to fire the faust - or nothing at all. Now it is almost opposite: Anything but the faust (which in my case may be partly due to the range misunderstanding mentioned above).

As far as I can tell, the only way(s) to ensure that teams fire only fausts when that is what you want them to do - is to reintroduce the "cover armor" order (and to code more realistic self preservation into the troops in these specific situations).

Would you want a squad to not fire at an exposed tank commander at 60m with their small arms just because one man in the squad carries a 30m panzerfaust? Probably depends on the situation, and is a conundrum not entirely solved by a "cover armor arc".

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Yes, I know (I assume this was meant for me). But then they´ll hold all fire - also the fausts.

My point is: Why would an infantryman fire his rifle at a tank? It´s pure suicide - at least in CMBN in my experience.

In most AT team situations you would want your team to fire the faust - or nothing at all. Now it is almost opposite: Anything but the faust (which in my case may be partly due to the range misunderstanding mentioned above).

As far as I can tell, the only way(s) to ensure that teams fire only fausts when that is what you want them to do - is to reintroduce the "cover armor" order (and to code more realistic self preservation into the troops in these specific situations).

Personally, I have no objection to seeing a 'cover armour' command, hopefully we'll see one in the future. However, I don't think the situation as it currently stands is as problematic as you suggest. I don't want my infantrymen to refrain from firing at exposed tank crewmembers by default. Forcing a tank to button up significantly reduces its spotting abilities. If you want your guys to wait until they can make a faust shot then you give them a target arc to prevent them firing until the target is within Pzfaust range. Even if they open fire with rifles or SMGs first, at ranges of 30m and less there is a very high probability that they will take out the TC, resulting in the tank becoming temporarily supressed and giving you plenty of time to take a faust shot. The only problem this may cause is that the tank may reverse out of range of your Pzfaust before your guys can get a shot off with it. You can solve that easily enough though by setting the target arc to say, 25m instead of 30.

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To get them from shooting too soon I use cover arcs even though I hate how they kill the eye candy. I have seen success with the weapon on both ends of it. A nice dramatic kill I can recal was a Greyhound was distracted, and about 75m away. I had a sqd, with a faust run and charge the hound's flank to within 30m. My Gerry's did a good job. Even with the FAST command the faust guy stoped within 35m and got a direct hit. I'm sorry I didn't make a fraps clip of that one. Beautiful!

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...OK. That might be the root of the problem, as I was under the impression that fausts could be used safely - and relatively accurately - at ranges up to 100 meters. I must have misunderstood something then.

Yep. That's the root of the problem, then. Range of the Panzerfausts you see in CMBN is 30m; that's why the model name is "Pz-30". Later in the war, the Germans developed longer-ranged, Pz-60, and eventually Pz-100 models. But these were not available in the summer of 1944.

suicidal behaviour in firing your rifle at a Sherman instead of your faust. In my opinion the landser should have fired the faust - and if that wasn´t possible (due to range it seems) - he shouldn´t have fired at all.

This video is indeed unusual, as the troops are attempting to engage the Sherman frontally. I thought the manouvre would have a reasonable chance of success, as the landsers would be behind a wall and would have the tank in full view as soon as they popped their heads above the egde. But then again I had expected them to use the faust - and didn´t know about the 30 meter limit...

Your Landser fired his rifle at the TC in a desperate attempt to kill the TC before the TC perforated him with 12.7mm holes from the cupola MG. At that range, the unbuttoned TC will spot your infantry very quickly; it's a quick-draw contest.

Trying to engage a tank in the frontal aspect with a weapon that has a range less than 50m is simply suicide. Don't do it.

To reiterate and review: For success with Panzerfausts, give your TH team a cover arc set at the maximum range of the Panzerfaust (30m), or maybe a couple of meters more, so they start aiming just a little bit before tank comes in range. Place or move them to engage the tank from the flank or rear.

And, if possible, button the tank before it gets close to the TH team with small arms from another unit, or mortar fire, or something like this. This will make it easier for the TH team to go unspotted until the tank gets within 'faust range.

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Well, thanks a lot for enlightening me on Panzerfaust tecniques: I tested it last night, and it worked like charm. Here´s a little clip that might be called a "text book example":

http://youtu.be/dyjdlI3OHRo

A funny thing anout the ranges, though: My weapon icons mod (Marco Bergman´s, I think) indicates that the range of the fausts is only 15m(!). Unfortunately you´re only able to see this, when the troops are using them as the primary weapon - and that is usually such a short time, that I hadn´t noticed.

(and I still think infantry are way too eager to commit suicide by firing small arms against tanks)

Cheers

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The impression I get from player comments is that fausts and schreck teams are too easily seen by buttoned up tanks, and many times they dont take the shot when it seems good, and the armor then kills them...

I agree with you completely. I normally will try and buttom tanks up by firing anything at them... they Button up quickly.. and I move my AT teams to their flanks.. even behind them.. the Panzershreck or Faust team usually gets hammered by Allied Tanks with FORCE sensitive crews... LOL

Even in tree lines... well back from the edge... they get spotted by passing tanks.. while they are hidden... Although while playing the Germans... my tanks devestate their infantry... so not sure how it has been designed in gam.

All I know is.. if the tank is buttoned up visiblity is reduced.. and they sure as SHIaat.. they cant see behind themselves that well as there is only one port.. the Command cuppola.. thats why attaching infantry to tanks was so crucial.

However I will try YankeeDogs approach as far as cover arc's. This being said, I one had 3 squads of infantry destroyed by one Buttoned up Sherman tank. LOL it was gruesome.. grenades going off, Panzerfaust at 30m or less.... All this took place in dense wood.. and the tank seemed to know where everyone was coming from in 3 different directions... so Im a little cautious about using Tank Hunter teams... unless the tanks are buttoned up.. and I can approach by the rear facing of the tank.. I usually keep them out of harms way.. or really do not deploy them. However they work great against Armd Cars, trucks etc. maybe they are easily blinded.

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All this took place in dense wood.. and the tank seemed to know where everyone was coming from in 3 different directions... so Im a little cautious about using Tank Hunter teams... unless the tanks are buttoned up.. and I can approach by the rear facing of the tank.. I usually keep them out of harms way.. or really do not deploy them.

I think the best is to really ambush, whenever I try to move on a tank my troops get mowed down.

the best is to wait and let the AT assets on the flank. basicly:

KpaOU.png

let's say something like this. Atleast that,s how I use my defense if it's no supported by tanks. But I'm a Single player mostly, I can't say vs human Oppoment. thing is the tanks and At guns should protect the spears pulling out. while the long range AT protect the ''spears'' and those spears are mostly hidden/have short cover arc and are on reverse slope if possible. this is also a great defense if you have only faust (reverse slope).

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