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fow in ladder games?


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Guest Captain Foobar

I vote for whatever method gives the most blind play! Unknown scenarios are the ONLY true tests of one's ability to deal with unknowns quickly and effectively. This is simply the most true to life, and also the most fun! Just my 2 pence. smile.gif

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Yah Tankersly I guess it was just a small nerve :-P: guess ya had to have been there to understand my strong opposition to the bidding suggestion. Other cc2 players will most likely know the situation I'm referring to, and how bad it was for gaming. My opinion was voiced so strongly because I would hate to see the same kind of scenario develop in another game that I really enjoy .

Sorry if I sounded harsh.

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I can vouch for SS's stink smile.gif There was enough BS going on to turn me into a non ladder player after just a few runs through it. I will definetly participate in a ladder for CM though, at least until I get to know everyone...

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This is currently an issue in another thread, but I think it has some bearing on this.

If the game will allow purchase-points scenarios on premade maps, with the amount of points known to both players, then that would be a way to ensure both FOW and a reasonable bidding system.

- "How many points would you require to attack with the Axis over this (known) terrain against 600p of defence? I'm willing to do it with 1150 points."

- "I'd do it with 1100 points."

- "Hmm, maybe I could do it with 1080."

- "OK, then I'll defend."

Wouldn't this resolve both issues? Or am I missing something?

The only requirements are that purchase-points scenarios can be done and that both players can see the amount of points available to the other.

Sten

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Thanks, John. Being the one that sent the e-mail, I think you give me too much credit. smile.gifI mostly had this notion of pools of commanders for PBEM. But bringing that idea into ladder tournaments is an excellent solution, IMO.

I played chess on a competitive level some years ago, both tournaments (single) and matches for my club (teams). I always found the matches most enjoyable and memorable, which may sound odd in such an ego-centered "sport" as chess. There's something about that team-spirit...

Anyways, both a team-ladder or John's previous idea of a bridge-system have the benefits of keeping all the FOW and allowing for unbalanced scenarios. These are things that would set it apart from normal, stand-alone or mirrored ladder games - for example, actually getting rewarded for knowing when to cut your losses.

"Right, in a perfect world", you could argue, because there's nothing to prevent you from having a look at your opponents forces or worse. Maybe you'd be right, maybe there are ways to make it work, like last-minute scenarios sent to the players, passwords for each side and scenario etc.

But in the case of team-ladders, I think the major prevention from cheating is within the system itself. I imagine most cheaters are in it for the ego-boost, to see their name at the top of the ladder. A team-environment isn't going to be as attractive to those people. Sure, whole team of unhonorable players may pop up, but chances are slimmer.

I also think there are quite a few players, that want to test their skills against others, but in a not-too-competitive environment. Plain old PBEM will do it, if you find a good opponent, but team-ladders won't look as daunting as single-player ladders.

"...play to enjoy the game and help your opponent enjoy it as well." L. Tankersley

This is exactly what I hope will be the spirit of a team-ladder. We get the best of both worlds - the competitive touch as in any tournament combined with the thrill of FOW and unbalanced scenarios as when we play against the AI.

Huron

PS. I saw that Fionn is starting a mailing list for a meta-campaign. Perhaps he/we/someone should get a mailing list about CM tournaments together? So we can see what interest there is, what forms of tournaments we want etc. DS.

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Sten

This is the exact kind of system that was forced upon players in cc2; It is highly unfair and the time involved in preparing to play is lengethened considerably.

QUOTE

*******************************************

How many points would you require to attack with the Axis over this (known) terrain against 600p of defence? I'm willing to do it with 1150 points."

*********************************************

The person that knows the game better has a SUPREME advantage over a newer player

He also fields this advantage if he has a better knowlege of the map.

*********************************************

- "I'd do it with 1100 points."

*********************************************

The player truely wanting to defend can bluff here forcing down the attackers points

this goes on and on and gets out of hand TRUST ME

********************************************

- "Hmm, maybe I could do it with 1080."

********************************************

If this player doesnt want to defend and this goes on for several bouts he ends up attacking with a force less than adequate- after losing a game of poker

THIS IS NOT WHAT CM IS ABOUT!

CM is Ww2 simulation. If you want to bid have the boys over for poker on friday night smile.gif

Trust me unless Jon Has some new variation of it that DRASTICALLY changes this format, I will not play like this and I'm sure I'm not alone. I have played this as have many others and it is simply not fair!

What would help in determining point spreads in these kinds of scenarios, would be is IF BTS gave some overall general point spreads for an even match which would act as a good guideline in determining the point ration for engagements. I understand they are very busy My hope is that this would be something that woulndn't be to time consuming if at all.

IE APPROX FAIR POINT SPREADS

HEavy URban Setting GErm Defending -- GErms 100% ; Allies 200% -----

VISA VErsA appropriate pts

Large TOWN GErms Defending 100% Allies 175%

VISA VErsA appropriate pts

ETC ETC

*THESe are ONLY Examples to suggest an Idea *and do onot emulate exact point suggestions

MY reasoning for suggesting BTS release General guidelines, is because they hav hands on exp form the start with every unit their code composition, playability etc. I think Steve maybe able to give some GOOD general Parameters as to what is fair in an point spread for a battle.

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SS_PanzerLeader....out

[This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 12-23-99).]

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Lokesa,

Nope, just drop by and it registers as a unique...

The Heavy Metal screenshot run has resulted in an almost doubling of visitorship which is pretty cool wink.gif. It is nice to see people taking an interest. Makes it much easier to keep motivated and take some extra pictures for ya'll.

There's an interesting SturmHaubitze 42 picture which should be interesting for you all wink.gif hehe.

SS_Panzerleader,

I think you'll find that the kinds of force levels you'll need in CM are roughly equivalent to historical force levels. Triple the manpower in the attack pretty much guarantees victory, double the manpower means a hard fight and equivalent manpower should yield a very bloody nose indeed wink.gif

You'll get the gist of it once you get the game.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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Huron: Better too much than too little, no? smile.gif You did suggest the team ladder idea... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Maybe as a tournament, but perhaps even better as a pool (two really) of PBEM opponents, where you play to keep your team on top of the other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a ladder to me. smile.gif

Panzerleader: There are better methods of bidding. Simplest, of course, is a blind one bid method, where each player secretly bids as low as they think they can do, and the lower of the two bids gets it. No bidding wars, no mind games, no problems. And the bidding is over quickly too.

-John

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No need to mull ss, it works, it works well, and it works for both blind and known scenarios. This is the system we used for W@W, with a slight modification in that we were bidding for the VP handicap. Some advantage does accrue to the person who knows the game, or scenario, better since they will have more of a feel for what is good bid, but the single round, double blind (ie both bids are sent to a third party who looks at both and announces the results) keeps it honest.

Jon

------------------

Ubique

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Guest L Tankersley

[Not sure if this was clear or not, so I thought I'd point it out just to be sure...]

Actually, I wasn't thinking about bidding for purchase points, but for victory level on preexisting scenarios. There are a bunch of similar ways to work that; one is to have both players make a single secret bid consisting of a victory point percentage and a side choice (e.g. one player bids Axis 4% and the other Axis 6%). The player that bids the higher percentage gets their chosen side, but loses the victory percentage they bid. So in this example, the second player would play the Axis, but would forfeit 6 victory points at the end of the scenario. (If 60% is normally required to win a Minor Victory, the Axis would need 66% to win a Minor Victory in this case.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sorry if I sounded harsh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worries, SS_PL - I've got no problem with people attacking my ideas as long as it doesn't get personal. Everyone comes up with some bad ideas once in a while.

Leland J. Tankersley

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IT seems that Jon and Tankersly have experinced other ways of bidding - I will be willing to try them for evaluation purposes as they do not seem to be in line with what we were subjected too. The type of bidding Sten suggested is the kind we had to deal with ; that I will have no part in, as for the rest I will keep an open mind smile.gif

The community that is growing here does seem to be a much better one than some of what cases ladder brought in. We haven't got to a competitive level yet hopefully the sentiment that is developing here will remain as such.

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SS_PanzerLeader....out

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