Jump to content

Combat Mission Battle for Berlin or perhaps Stalingrad?


Recommended Posts

I have to strongly disagree.

CMx2's handling of close combat is quite horrible IMHO. Hand to hand combat is not even modelled, buildings are quite sketchy and horribly abstracted compared to all other terrain types, the spotting simply doesn't work in CQC environments (two hostile soldiers facing eachother... next to eachother, takes them at least 30 seconds to spot eachother sometimes... units don't use grenades to clear rooms, etc.

From my experience the CMx2 engine can barely handle fights inside larger villages, let alone towns and even cities. It's good for anything in the 50-2000m range.

This specific comment I have to disagree with strongly. There may well be issues with spotting in MOUT and other close terrain environments, but having two opposing soldiers not spot each other for 30 seconds in such dense terrain is definitely possible.

I can't speak from actual military experience, but my experience playing paintball and airsoft definitely supports the idea that you can be literally right on top of an enemy in an urban environment, and have no idea they are there, for quite some time. In one particular incident, I was literally on the opposite side of an interior wall from a guy on the other side, for about 5 minutes. I only became aware he was there when he started to move to another position. In another, I was in an abandoned warehouse separated by only about 10' and a small sand pile from 3 guys on the other team for a good 2 minutes before we realized we were on top of each other.

And I've read accounts of similar incidents happening in actual combat, from Stalingrad to Fallujah, so I while I'm generally reluctant to draw conclusions regarding actual combat from paintball experiences, in this particular case, I think it holds.

The other stuff is interesting to debate. In general, I don't think CMx2's depiction of urban combat (which I played with much more in CMSF than in CMBN) is too bad. There are some UI "tricks" you need to learn regarding how to issue movement, pause and area fire orders, but overall I'm usually able to get units to do more or less what I want them to do, albeit perhaps with a bit more micromanaging than is ideal.

But there is certainly room for improvement, as there always will be... among other things, I do agree that there are some rough edges regarding grenade use, especially wrt building/room clearing. But at the same time, I am not generally in favor of a specific "Use Grenades" area fire order in the UI. Last thing the infantry control UI needs in this game is more micromanaging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya a grenade area fire command would be great.

If you issue a target order on structure from within grenade range, grenades will be used. A pause of 5-10 secs combined with the "target" order before entering a structure will fairly reliably use a grenade or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to strongly disagree.

CMx2's handling of close combat is quite horrible IMHO. Hand to hand combat is not even modelled, buildings are quite sketchy and horribly abstracted compared to all other terrain types, the spotting simply doesn't work in CQC environments (two hostile soldiers facing eachother... next to eachother, takes them at least 30 seconds to spot eachother sometimes... units don't use grenades to clear rooms, etc.

From my experience the CMx2 engine can barely handle fights inside larger villages, let alone towns and even cities. It's good for anything in the 50-2000m range.

I totally agree with that, But anything intown, or fight into villages, I don't think it renders it really well...

SO I don't thihknk it would render well berling or stalingrad

There is stilla lot of stuff that cm omit from a realism point of view. I totally agree about hand to hand combat in the norman background, but in an urban enviroment, it`s totally different, people shoot, nade and ''SHOVEL/SPADE'' each other fron room to room. from hedge to hedge I think it`s awsome, but in urban enviroment, i think it stitll has some progress to do!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am under the impression we are going all the way to Berlin on the Western Front, then taking the Eastern Front back in time from '45 to '41.

This is because is it hella easier to start with the late-war Units and work back for production reasons. You may have to do the time-warp again and again.... but you get the modules much faster.

All will be well for all players, we just have to keep feeding the quarters into the slot and play with what we have as it comes out.

I am still exploring the engine and design paradigms on this module.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This specific comment I have to disagree with strongly. There may well be issues with spotting in MOUT and other close terrain environments, but having two opposing soldiers not spot each other for 30 seconds in such dense terrain is definitely possible.

I can't speak from actual military experience, but my experience playing paintball and airsoft definitely supports the idea that you can be literally right on top of an enemy in an urban environment, and have no idea they are there, for quite some time. In one particular incident, I was literally on the opposite side of an interior wall from a guy on the other side, for about 5 minutes. I only became aware he was there when he started to move to another position. In another, I was in an abandoned warehouse separated by only about 10' and a small sand pile from 3 guys on the other team for a good 2 minutes before we realized we were on top of each other.

And I've read accounts of similar incidents happening in actual combat, from Stalingrad to Fallujah, so I while I'm generally reluctant to draw conclusions regarding actual combat from paintball experiences, in this particular case, I think it holds.

The other stuff is interesting to debate. In general, I don't think CMx2's depiction of urban combat (which I played with much more in CMSF than in CMBN) is too bad. There are some UI "tricks" you need to learn regarding how to issue movement, pause and area fire orders, but overall I'm usually able to get units to do more or less what I want them to do, albeit perhaps with a bit more micromanaging than is ideal.

But there is certainly room for improvement, as there always will be... among other things, I do agree that there are some rough edges regarding grenade use, especially wrt building/room clearing. But at the same time, I am not generally in favor of a specific "Use Grenades" area fire order in the UI. Last thing the infantry control UI needs in this game is more micromanaging.

I know what you mean and didn't really aim my comment at these kind of situations.

What I'm really talking about is this:

1.)Squad assaults building (they don't use grenades)

2.)Squad wipe out the enemy whilst taking minimal casualties (or they get wiped out)

3.)Sole enemy survivor sitting in a corner of the building not being seen by the squad in the building (which is still fine)

now here comes the funky bit

4.) member of squad spots enemy soldier

5.) enemy soldier is blind and doesn't see/open fire

6.) member of squad shoots a couple of times at the enemy

7.) after multiple shots the enemy soldier finally see the squad member and kills him

8.) enemy soldier stays undetected for some more time

9.) they finally spot him and kill him

Either this, or they all get mowed down because they run in like idiots while there's an mg waiting at the doorstep.

Every army, be it WW2 or modern (although modern armies have far better drills when doing so) would clear a house while assaulting it, they'd be cautious and only after clearing the house would they settle down and get in position. And let's not even talk about they certainly wouldn't all just run through a door one after each other and all die one after each other like zombies.

How the game should handle houses like these with the current abstraction and non-existance of hand to hand combat and any other brains is simple. Abstract house clearing and the occupation.

1.) squad enters building

2.) squad disappears and building is greyed and the status changes to occupying house (or clearing or whatever) and everything happening in there is abstracted. Hand to hand combat, grenades, shooting, room clearing, etc.

3.) as soon as all enemies are dead (or the squad is) and there is some additional time for the squad to set up the house is freed up again and everything continues like normal.

If I'd have to say what pisses me off with CMBN the most then I'd probably say the 1:1 modelling inconsistencies and the resulting problems and weird behaviour. Some things are 1:1, some things are abstracted, and there is no logically sound line following it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As players of CM we have not yet seen the fruits of this expansion but it is not myth. At some point the time gap between CM releases of new titles and modules will drop dramatically.

There is lots of CM stuff to look forward to,

...

We are lucky to have CM....

All the best,

Kip.

I'd like to believe the first part is true - I really, really would. But I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that it is true.

In the meantime, CMBN is still enjoyable and that there is lots to explore and learn before ever exhausting its potential, and I'm mindful that those who stuck with CMSF considered the patience to be well worth it, so I guess I agree with the second part. But the Eastern Front in any manifestation sure seems a long, long way off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...