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"Unhide" needed


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So: when your guys are hiding behind some cover, they can't see into the target zone they're defending, because they are heads down.

Which is a complete pain in the bum if you need them to pop up and start shooting, or (more importantly) call in some artillery. As it is at the moment, you have to give "unhide" and wait a whole minute to then take advantage of the new LOS. There seems to be no reason why they shouldn't immediately pop up...

GaJ

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A good point WRT arty, but perhaps a bit marginal for other troops: you could assign them a 360 cover arc that reaches whatever it is you'd like them to open up on, and most of the time they'll fire upon it once they have popped their heads up, if they spot it. Which wouldn't be much different from having them 'pop up' during the order phase, because the time element of spotting would have to be taken into consideration, so no new 'firm contacts' would be acquired by 'unhiding', so the only additional possibilities for targeting would be area ones, and the cover types that deny area targeting to hiding teams are specific and not universal. I know Bocage, for example, will allow a hiding team to area fire through it 99% of the time. Walls and elevation changes, yes, you need to be able to see over, but not so much with vegetation-based cover.

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There does seem to be a requirement for something in the middle between HIDE (everyone has their face in the dirst and can't see much) and "not hiding" - which seems to be everyone poking their heads up and rubber-necking like tourists at the zoo (regardless of what the graphic shows) thus being too easily seen and shot at.

Maybe an AMBUSH setting, where one or two guys CAREFULLY look around for the enemy whilst being almost invisible in cover, while the rest HIDE. That's what the graphic shows, but it seems they are way too easily spotted currently. So, I wonder what the computer system "sees" them as actually doing.

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There does seem to be a requirement for something in the middle between HIDE (everyone has their face in the dirst and can't see much) and "not hiding" - which seems to be everyone poking their heads up and rubber-necking like tourists at the zoo (regardless of what the graphic shows) thus being too easily seen and shot at.

+1 this.

For soldiers in the open, it would be good to have a prone which was not "face in the dirt".

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The mechanics of Hide appears to have evolved from CM1. In that series you could set an ambush with hiding troops because they 'peeked'. Now they really, really hide. They do seem to respond to audio clues, however.

Best tactic now is, apparently, to have an unhiding team performing spotting duties nearby. as far as realism is concerning one could make a case for either implementation.

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One could argue not usefully often. And, to my original point, I think this makes the point: the LOS tool should be indicating what they can see *when they peek*.

GaJ

You've got to remember that hiding troops are virtually invisible to the enemy as well (in the right circumstance). It cuts both ways. Maybe it can be improved if the leader of the squad keeps on spotting continuously as the rest of the squad hides or something.

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You've got to remember that hiding troops are virtually invisible to the enemy as well (in the right circumstance). It cuts both ways. Maybe it can be improved if the leader of the squad keeps on spotting continuously as the rest of the squad hides or something.

You're missing the point - when plotting a move in WEGO - you need to be able to use the LOS tool to see if it's worth unhiding your men or not. As it stands you can't do this. You can't spin this as a positive feature of the game.

In CM1 you could unhide a unit whilst plotting a move, and also choose to re-hide them. I may be wrong but I believe the reason you can't do this in CM2 is because WEGO is Realtime with pauses.... and as such can't be altered, perhaps the devs will comment on this.

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You're missing the point - when plotting a move in WEGO - you need to be able to use the LOS tool to see if it's worth unhiding your men or not. As it stands you can't do this. You can't spin this as a positive feature of the game.

In CM1 you could unhide a unit whilst plotting a move, and also choose to re-hide them. I may be wrong but I believe the reason you can't do this in CM2 is because WEGO is Realtime with pauses.... and as such can't be altered, perhaps the devs will comment on this.

I may be mis understanding your suggestion, but honestly that seems not quite gamey, but counter to what the command is supposed to be imposing on you. Unhiding then hiding again retains all the benefits of hiding and none of the drawbacks. The issue really (IMHO) is that in a WeGo turn you have to live with your decision for the next 60 seconds. "Hiding" is what it is, digging your face into the dirt and hugging the ground. I do like the idea of some mid range position between burrowing into the ground or being out there for a Sunday stroll to observe the local fauna and flora though.

On the other hand I have not found this to be that much of an issue. I tend to have someone further back observing to try and decide when my ambush team should stop hiding. Granted I would prefer an ambush type command that would allow them to take maximum advantage of concealment before firing at something that comes within their target arc, but hiding and unhiding isn't quite it for me. For example if there is dust and smoke how long will it take for my unit to acquire something I know is approaching into an area I should be able to spot into, is my unit suffering any suppression etc. The factors that go into springing a good ambush are many and some of it is just luck. I have found myself using hide less than I had originally though. Now I look for good concealment and shorter target arcs, though that has backfired on me occasionally as well.

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As others have said even when a unit is HIDING there is always a troop or two spotting as show in the soldier stat text.

(???) = HIDING . (Vin’s animated text mod)

CMNormandy2011-11-1920-44-56-36.jpg

What I am assuming this implies is all are prone, and the ones hiding got their chins to the ground. The dudes spotting are still prone, but sticking their heads up a bit to try to see better while still staying low even though the graphic may not show this. Less heads spotting means less heads that can be seen easier. This also means less heads are looking around hence the unit is not spotting as well as it could if it were not hiding. There is a definite spotting handicap when HIDING.

I use HIDING alone when I DO NOT want the unit to be seen, or engage as the priority over being able to spot well. Example from some recent PBEM's I've had: Arty spotter got cut off, and an enemy patrol was passing by. I put him in hide mode, and when they passed I switch to very small 180 degree arc. Now he can spot well for the arty, but will not open up on enemy giving his position away, and get killed. I also give HIDE when under arty barrage. They will take fewer casualties this way.

As stated in the previous, and by others in the thread I use SMALL COVER ARC to spot well, and not open fire-giving position away. They will still not be keeping as low to the ground as in hide, but I have had much success with recon with this. I literally have had times where enemy were 25m away, and not seen my guy if in good cover like a building. This is the standard setting I put all command units in, and they live much longer while still spotting well. COVER ARC without HIDE works best for ambush.

The in-between of this is HIDE w/COVER ARC. This sound like the command that should have been given for the original post. In this behavior only a guy or two is spotting while the others keep lower. If something comes into the arc they will open up on it, but the reaction time will be MUCH slower. DO NOT USE THIS FOR AMBUSH. I found that out the hard way in my first PBEM. It was a disaster! Like the manual says if a unit feels threatened it will choose to fire on enemy. This setting gives you more control over that if you want. I don’t use this often if at all anymore against a human.

If you want your guys to end up prone at the last waypoint give short SLOW movement for last waypoint.

If in HIDE the LOS tool does show ALL the AREA it can see. This does not imply though that the unit can see ALL that area at once while spotting. The effect is similar to how a buttoned tank spots. It scans here, and then scans there. So even if an enemy comes into the LOS area your unit still may not see it as it is looking in a different direction. This constantly changes just as the one guys view is constantly changing as he peeks while hiding.

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It's not clear from your response whether you understand the problem I'm raising.

I am not arguing that units should be able to spot better while hiding or any other change to behaviour while hiding.

What I am saying is that you need to be able to unhide them and not have to wait a while minute before you can do something else. If you unhide an FO, or an MG, you have to wait a whole minute before you can aim at something....

GaJ

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It's not clear from your response whether you understand the problem I'm raising.

I am not arguing that units should be able to spot better while hiding or any other change to behaviour while hiding.

What I am saying is that you need to be able to unhide them and not have to wait a while minute before you can do something else. If you unhide an FO, or an MG, you have to wait a whole minute before you can aim at something....

GaJ

Half true, you've told him not to hide, you haven't actually stopped hiding until the turn starts. As the unit was hiding it has no way to know what targets you wanted to select so what you are really waiting for is to overcome relative spotting. :D

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You're missing the point - when plotting a move in WEGO - you need to be able to use the LOS tool to see if it's worth unhiding your men or not. As it stands you can't do this. You can't spin this as a positive feature of the game.

In CM1 you could unhide a unit whilst plotting a move, and also choose to re-hide them. I may be wrong but I believe the reason you can't do this in CM2 is because WEGO is Realtime with pauses.... and as such can't be altered, perhaps the devs will comment on this.

A workaround to this is to simply select a unit that is not hiding plot a waypoint on the exact spot of the hiding unit and check the LOS. Unless you want to know what the hiding *knows* is there, in which case the <?> need to be more distinctive. By the way, there is no way I can be missing the point AND spinning things. It's one or the other ;).

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Half true, you've told him not to hide, you haven't actually stopped hiding until the turn starts. As the unit was hiding it has no way to know what targets you wanted to select so what you are really waiting for is to overcome relative spotting. :D

Yes all very logical ... except for an FO who knows exactly what landscape lies beyond and just needs to plan a fire mission...

GaJ

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... Maybe it can be improved if the leader of the squad keeps on spotting continuously as the rest of the squad hides or something.

That´s how it actually worked RL, by german WW2 squad level doctrine. It was either the SL or a dedicated squad member who was given task observing (with binocs given to him), while the remaning squad stayed in cover and concealment.

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That´s how it actually worked RL, by german WW2 squad level doctrine. It was either the SL or a dedicated squad member who was given task observing (with binocs given to him), while the remaning squad stayed in cover and concealment.

And I think that's why the team or squad leader so often becomes the first casualty in CMBN.

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Yes all very logical ... except for an FO who knows exactly what landscape lies beyond and just needs to plan a fire mission...

GaJ

That's why I don't stick FO's in the front line. :D If they have TRP hiding won't affect them and if they don't have a TRP, they have no business having their face in the dirt.

Regardless I do like the idea of having an alternate to either hiding or just doing a shortened covered arc. The idea that a team would be waiting in ambush does indicate a different sort of behavior than those two options cover. Granted they requires coding for the behavior and a UI change as well so I know it isn't a simple issue, but it would be nice.

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