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What were they thinking? I ask again...


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I don't like that the "?" contacts don't float as well. They can get easily lost in bocage terrain resulting in too much use of the camera to find them.

That's only because BFC (unlike other game designers) make the icons obscurable by terrain. It is a problem they have created themselves. Seems many people are too eager to just "buy in" to the notion that BFC made the icons that way because they just had too. Just looking at how unit markers in other similar games behave proves how incorrect that is.

Lt Bull, I think the problem may be in how you are navigating the game.

Definitely not the problem, and I have played dozens of similar tactical wargames on 3D battlefields similar to CMBN. When it comes to the implementation unit markers, CMBN stands alone as the black sheep elephant in the room. The problem is the unprecedented implementation of a counter-intuitive unit marker system that needlessly results in a ridiculously excessive physical disconnect between where the unit is on the battlefield and where the icon belonging to it is located, directly diminishing the quality of the unit positional information communicated by the marker to the player.

As I have said, this is not a discussion on if you are happy with it or not, or how you should try to "adapt" to it (though I appreciate the intent). It is about understanding "why is it this way?"

No it is not a game breaker. I can play the game though when I do I know I am needlessly fighting my own intuition, double checking/clicking things I know I shouldn't have to, paying more attention to just simple things like "so where is that marker telling me my unit is?". I regularly survey the map/battlefield from afar from different angles and my eyes see a marker on the map and tell me (like they do in every other game I have played, or as you would see on a) "that is where the unit is", but, then I have to stop and check because in this game what you see is not what you get and units are located at ridiculous distances from the marker.

Imagine if you were able to shift all the unit markers shown on a 2D tactical combat map 30m in one direction and presented it to a commander for assessment:

Commander: Hey sergeant bring me that battle map. I need to reassess our positions.

You: Sure thing sir!

<unfolds map on table>

Commander: Err, I thought we had 1st Squad located in that barn. What are they doing in that open field to the north? And that tank for B Co. What's it doing in those woods north of where I ordered it?

You: umm....errr....

Commander: 3rd Sqd should be in that gully, not in that nearby building. Hang on a sec...WTF is going on? None of these units are where I thought they should be. Have they been disobeying orders again?

You: No sir, not that I know.

Commander: So who has been messing with this map?

You: Well, umm, sir...we are marking maps differently now. HQ have told us that its better to not actually position the unit markers where the units are actually located but 5-30m north of where they really are.

Commander: You are kidding me right? What kind of knuckle-headed idea is this?

You: Well sir, it's HQ. They say that if you move the marker away from where the unit actually is you can see the terrain the unit actually is in.

Commander: You serious? Last I checked maps tell me where things are.

You: Well sir, not anymore. If you REALLY want to be sure where your units are, you are going to have to go out and personally check each one individually yourself, in person.

Commander: OMG! But the unit markers are small enough I can see the underlying terrain anyway. There is no need do to it anyway. I mean at least draw a connecting line from the marker to the spot on the map where the unit actually is, at least then I can see where the unit actually is....Hang on, why am I even arguing. This whole idea is just RETARDED in the first place!

You: Well sir, it does't end there. Rotate the map.

<Commander rotates map clockwise 90deg>

Commander: What the? The unit markers have moved AGAIN!

You: Well you see sir the markers on these maps reposition themselves depending on how you look at the map. All markers are now around 5-30m west of where the units actually are.

Commander: Oh my, this is doing my head in.

you: One more thing sir. See those markers at the top of the map? They are actually further away from where the units are than the ones down on the bottom edge.

Commander: OK, I will bite...why?

You: Well sir, I don't know, something about making them more visible that the ones down here loser to you.

Commander: Un- *******-believable. This whole idea is doing my head in. What the hell are they thinking?

YOU: Umm, no't really sure sir.

<Commander rolls up map>

Commander: Sergeant..

You: Sir!

Commander: Take this map back to those clowns at HQ and tell them to shove it up their ***. Then go find and bring me back a normal regular conventional military map that actually tells just shows me where my units really are. You know, like the ones we and everyone have been using for centuries. I am not asking for much, really.

You: Yes sir! I will do my best.

Commander: Gods speed sergeant

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The question I reiterate is WHY?? Why did BFC (feel they had to?) do it like this? How does it make things better? If it doesn't, then why do it?

I reiterate the answer for you: If I recall it correctly, for some technical reason the vegetation was covering the icons when they were floating lower. The people who know the graphic engine better than you and me decided - at that time - that making the icons float higher would solve the problem with minimum effort. After that, everybody became used to it.

That's it, basically.

Best regards,

Thomm

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Lt Bull,

I think you have made your point sufficiently. Most of us do not have a problem with the current incarnation of the floating icons. Just so you know this was kicked about behind the scenes when this engine was being worked on. I cant remember a single thread where anyone but you has brought up this issue. Not saying we cannot improve this in the future, but this is how it is and will stay, atleast through the next modules.

\

The guys who make these decisions have been doing this for 12 years, designed the engine from the ground up, and quite frankly know a lot more about this than you do. You posting screenshots from other games doesnt prove your point any better than from the first ranting post you made. You have made plenty of backhanded compliments and I suppose thats better than nothing but even you admitted it's not a game breaker.

One thing that does bother me is you keep saying we dont understand your point when the truth is we understand and some of us sympathize, but most, if not all, agree that it's just not one of those do or die type things that takes away from your "masterpiece". We get it but we just dont agree so stop with the madness already. It's all about style vs substance and there plenty of things that are far more pressing than this man.

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I remember coming from CMAK onto CMSF and instinctively hating those balloons.

Thats was few years ago - looking back now I realise how feeble my objections were.

The games is what it is - either play it or don't play it, but please don't point to other games that you like and bewail that it hasn't got the 'features' that you personally like in those other games.

It's a bit like me going to watch an NFL game and moan on about the lack of ruck's mauls and line-outs.

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Yes, I think Vinnart is on to something good here. :D

Lt Bull, I think the problem may be in how you are navigating the game. TRUST me if you take my advice you will be navigating, and finding units VERY fast! I have played TOW and other RTS games, and I navigate just as fast in CM. I played in international RTS leagues with a game called Sudden Strike, and was undefeated in all my team games with many times being the key guy to break through the line. I was a “professional” RTS player in that game so I know that speed of command and control is key to victory. Part of why I won so much was because I was faster than my opponent in controlling my units.

First, you need the right equipment. Not only for this game, but any others you may play. Look at it like baseball. If you want to play you need to have a glove even though you can catch the ball with your bare hands. If you want to play games efficiently invest in a mouse with as many programmable buttons (mine has 9), and a Nostromo52 speedpad. I know you are all saying why should I have to buy these extra things? See my baseball analogy. With these things any game can be made to control fast, and they can overcome poor keyboard control layouts.

How I navigate and find units efficiently: All my buttons on the mouse are for camera controls except the forward/back buttons. These are for cycling forward and backwards through units (+-). Center mouse key is the “Tab” key to center over unit. The rest of the keys are preset camera control 1-6. I usually keep the camera around the 3-4 positions. From there to find a unit I select the unit icon and hit my button to center camera over unit. The camera immediately flies to being centered over the selected unit, and I can see the bases light up showing the exact location. If I want to drop to ground level I hit a button. To go back to 4 for more of a overview I hit another button. It is as easy as that, and you are immediately where ever you want to on the battlefield to find units with NO problems. Just select an icon, and hit the “tab” button and the selected unit is center on the screen.

Ordering efficiently, and more camera controls: The rest of the game ( or any game) controls go on the Nostromo52. Here I have all the most common commands tied to the hotkeys. I have the zoom in/out tied to the N52 scroll wheel. Another IMPORTANT camera hotkey that is tied is F12. This key allows you to select the previous unit selected different than cycling, which is in formation order. With this you can jump between controlling two units very quickly. You can also use it to jump back to your friendly if you have an enemy selected. Also use this key if you accidentally deselect your previously selected unit.

Take my advice and you will be controlling this game with complete ease. FAST, and efficient! It takes a bit of upfront experimenting in how you want to set up the hotkeys for the devises, but once you do you will see a BIG difference in how you control a game. Hope this helps because I have no problems finding units any differently from TOW. Could the icon be improved, and overall situational awareness? Yes probably, but it is in no way a game breaker especially if one navigates as I have suggested.

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And confirms my instinct to never play RT games vs humans as there are many monster RT players out there like (obviously 14 year old) Vinnart who take RT stuff way more seriously than I ever could (or would want to).

:)

I don’t really RT much these days and prefer my CM WEGO now that I turned 15yrs ;). Add 30 more yrs and you got my age. Ah to be 14 again today. I wouldn’t want to as the world is so F’d up.

I still find for WEGO that the above makes it more comfortable and fast to control, but is certainly more important for RT play, which I obviously have some experience with on a more competitive level. The funny thing is when I first started playing Sudden Strike multiplayer online I didn’t seek league play. I was recruited by a team (aka clan). Most of the guys were in their 30’s and 40’s. It was a lot of fun socially.

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