Are barbed wire and mines too robust ?

[noob]

In my opinion barbed wire and mines seem far too robust, the only thing that can breach a barbed wire strip is a tank, however i would of thought direct or indirect HE fire via a satchel charge, tank or artillery would be able to breach it. Also i would of thought that artillery or a satchel charge would be able to destroy or activate mines, am i right in making these assumptions ? if so it would be excellent if CM would allow this.

[John1966]

I must admit that when I was playing School of Hard Knocks (SPOLILER).....

.......I was somewhat infuriated that the CONSTANT(!) artillery bomardment landing on my guys in the minefields didn't actually seem to do anything to clear the sodding mines

Talk about insult to injury.

[Sgt Schultz]

You cannot clear mines with artillery.

I tried with all sorts of calibers and numbers of rounds.

Even if it looks like a moonscape the mines are still there.

Killed a scenario I was designing to clear mines that way.

[John1966]

You cannot clear mines with artillery.

I tried with all sorts of calibers and numbers of rounds.

Even if it looks like a moonscape the mines are still there.

Killed a scenario I was designing to clear mines that way.

Would I be correct in suggesting then, that scenario designers shouldn't design scenarios where you get pasted with arty while in a minefield as it would lead to unrealistic results?

Not to say it never happened, just that its not going to effect the minefield so the result is unrealistic.

[womble]

In my opinion barbed wire and mines seem far too robust, the only thing that can breach a barbed wire strip is a tank, however i would of thought direct or indirect HE fire via a satchel charge, tank or artillery would be able to breach it.

Satchel charges, known in the game as "demo charges" certainly can break a hole in wire obstacles. Use the Blast command just like blowing a hole in bocage.

Also i would of thought that artillery or a satchel charge would be able to destroy or activate mines, am i right in making these assumptions ? if so it would be excellent if CM would allow this.

Again, demo charges can detonate mines. The difficulty here is that they can't be targetted on mines directly, AFAIK. If there is a targetable obstacle (wire, wall, building) on top of the mines, you will often find that the mines are sumpathetically detonated when the charge goes off.

[noob]

Satchel charges, known in the game as "demo charges" certainly can break a hole in wire obstacles. Use the Blast command just like blowing a hole in bocage.

I tested the blast command with wire and it works which is excellent,thanks for the info, however it does underline my point about the inability of artillery to destroy wire.

As for the mines, in my tests the mines were still intact even after direct hits from the demo blast, so if there is a possibility of a sympathetic mine explosion during a wire blast order its too random for my liking, would it be too much to programme the mines to take damage from blast commands like wire ?, then the engineers could target and disable them directly with predictable results as in real life.

[GhostRider3/3]

Pioneer's or Engineers are great, I was in a Urban enviornment and a US .30 cal had an entire platoon pinned down pretty much so I had a Pioneer squad flank while we tried to put some covering fire on the blding.

The Pioneers blasted through the back wall injuring a couple of the crew and then came in blazing with MG34 and MP 40... it was Epic! I use Engineers alot for Urban combat. The US Engineers are usually well stocked with Explosive Charges.

[George MC]

I tested the blast command with wire and it works which is excellent,thanks for the info, however it does underline my point about the inability of artillery to destroy wire.

As for the mines, in my tests the mines were still intact even after direct hits from the demo blast, so if there is a possibility of a sympathetic mine explosion during a wire blast order its too random for my liking, would it be too much to programme the mines to take damage from blast commands like wire ?, then the engineers could target and disable them directly with predictable results as in real life.

My guys have to live long enough to a/ clear the mines to b/ get to the wire to c/ blow the bloody thing!

[womble]

I tested the blast command with wire and it works which is excellent,thanks for the info, however it does underline my point about the inability of artillery to destroy wire.

I'm pretty sure the manual says "enough" arty will break wire, and that people reported that it would, but that "enough" was actually "a great deal indeed". But I haven't seen arty break wire (or, indeed needed it to), so I can't comment further.

As for the mines, in my tests the mines were still intact even after direct hits from the demo blast, so if there is a possibility of a sympathetic mine explosion during a wire blast order its too random for my liking...

It happened every time I blew the wire at the end of the bridge (4 times, no fails) in School of Hard Knocks.

[YankeeDog]

Interesting. It's been a while since I fired up CMSF, but I'm fairly certain at least larger caliber artillery with impact fuses would degrade minefields in CMSF. I wonder why they got rid of this... seemed realistic to me.

[Sergei]

I'm pretty sure the manual says "enough" arty will break wire, and that people reported that it would, but that "enough" was actually "a great deal indeed". But I haven't seen arty break wire (or, indeed needed it to), so I can't comment further.

You most certainly can break the wire, but it's not always easy - they are nimble targets for either blast or fragment effect to destroy. In WW1 it was found that breaking barbed wire defences did indeed require a great deal of artillery fire, and they learned it the hard way...

According to a 1939 Finnish manual, at a range of 2-4 km to destroy a 10x30m barbed wire obstacle you needed 250-350 76mm cannon shells, 120-140 122mm howitzer shells or 75-90 152mm howitzer shells. At a range of 4-6km you needed 350-450 76mm cannon shells, 140-180 122mm howitzer shells or 90-120 152mm howitzer shells. I do believe it's easier in the game than that!

[Boche]

Plus if we had that ammout of artillery we would not be using it on barbed wire!!!

[SelfLoadingRifle]

In my opinion barbed wire and mines seem far too robust, the only thing that can breach a barbed wire strip is a tank, however i would of thought direct or indirect HE fire via a satchel charge, tank or artillery would be able to breach it. Also i would of thought that artillery or a satchel charge would be able to destroy or activate mines, am i right in making these assumptions ? if so it would be excellent if CM would allow this.

1) I recall reading comments on the effect of artillery on barbed wire in WW1. The complaint was that the explosions merely lifted the wire up and dumped it back down again in an even worse tangle than before. Comments please!

2) Demo charges seem to double as bangalore torpedos in the game, which is certainly one way past wire, driving a tank through it another.

3) With regard to mines, I am not so sure. How long does it take to clear a minefield? At Kursk I believe that the Germans were lifting mines at a rate of a mine a minute per sapper prior to the initial assault. However, if it takes -say - an hour to clear a minefield, then that probably puts mine clearance outside the scope of the game.

SLR

[noob]

Good points made about artillery on wire and mine clearance, but i still think that artillery should activate "some" mines.

[womble]

Good points made about artillery on wire and mine clearance, but i still think that artillery should activate "some" mines.

How do you know it doesn't? AP mines don't leave any traces. AT mines might need hits from weapons that leave craters as big as the mine anyway, so you might not be able to tell.

[noob]

How do you know it doesn't? AP mines don't leave any traces. AT mines might need hits from weapons that leave craters as big as the mine anyway, so you might not be able to tell.

I have been playing a game where my minefields have sustained multiple hits from artillery of varying calibres with no effect, but the more i think about it the more i realise i really should do some proper testing before coming to any conclusions so watch this space

[noob]

I have created a new thread with the results of artillery effectiveness on wire and mines.