Gnaeus

your attempt to play the both-siderism game is pathetic and shows an incredible amount of ignorance, both in historic and in current events.  What Gingerich did was completely unprecedented.  What McConnell did was completely unprecedented.  And Trump is off the charts for breaking both norms and laws.  ANd where on the left are the insane ones that are wielding power?   Where's the dem Matt Gaetz?  MTGreene?  American democracy is on the brink and it is due to one side and one side only.  Guess what --  Biden won't attempt to throw the country into a civil war to unlawfully try to cling to power.  Trump's been doing that for last 4 years, including a full on mob-coup attempt that left people dead.  So just WTF are you even talking about?  Clearly you've been watching Hannity or some other bull**** monger and now you are parroting their bulls--t.
So stop watching Fox & newsmax.  It makes you look like a damn fool.
Oh, and please respond by telling me how it's the dems fault the GOP held up UKR aid for 3 months.  Dems aint the ones on Putin's payroll.  
 

Fundamentally this is a thread about the Russo-Ukraine war that is (unsurprisingly) pro-Ukrainian. So the U.S. political party that refused to bring aid to a vote is going to catch the most flak here. And like yea AOC might be destructive to some process but she isn't destructive to getting Ukraine the materials the country needs to fight the Russian invasion. The House vote tally was overwhelming for aid so why wasn't there a vote on the aid 6 months ago?

Like I don't want to talk about gun rights, or schools, or abortion, or any number of other U.S. hot button topics. But I've been sitting here for ~6 months watching as one particular party refused to allow Ukraine what it needs. And frankly I'm not an unbiased observer about this and its one of the reasons I stepped away from the thread for a while. Its hard to come in here to hear and see bad news about the war and then be non-partisan about the partisan politics that are getting Ukrainians killed. Like if you trawl this thread you will see video evidence on nearly every page of real soldiers and civilians who died needlessly for some partisan BS.

 
 

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

Hmm, well I will take your word for it but it really sounds like creative accounting.  This is a bad example really, traffic accidents are more often expressed in fatalities, not cars.  In fact one can have more car accidents but fewer fatalities (see: seatbelt campaigns in the 80s).
To my mind one cannot discount the mass of the population as a foundational metric of the power of any given state.  If Lesser Tonga decided to go back to a monarchy it will have far lesser impact regionally or globally than if China suddenly breaks out in Liberal Democracy; however, by these metrics we are counting "one".
Regardless, as much fun as this side journey has been, I think we can agree that democracy has come under pressure recently - there seems to be wide agreement on this.  Whether this is a blip or trend is kind of a red herring as it will either be a blip or trend based entirely on what we do right now.  And more specifically how well the US defends its own democracy individually and abroad...like Ukraine. 
As a Canadian, I can say with a lot of authority that if the US democracy fails/erodes, we are not going to be able to write it off as a "single nation backsliding" in the global ledger.  We are going to feel that impact on a very broad scope and scale.  Further, the western world and champions of democracy, fumble the ball in Ukraine the impacts on global order and stability will also be felt far and wide.  We cannot reduce this war to "one more in the lose column".  More importantly "how" we win or lose this war is also very important.  If we can "lose" in a Korean Peninsula scenario - which, I for one do not see as a loss but many will disagree - we can still preserve something of a global order.  If we catastrophically lose through apathy and political paralysis it is going to risk damaging the democratic narrative and influence for some time to come. 

And my point is that upward trend can only be sustained if we work for it and defend it.  Democracy is not the natural state of large scale human affairs or political systems.  History demonstrates quite the opposite.  The hope was that literacy and enlightenment would allow for greater informed choice by the masses but as we have just discussed there are some serious issues in the modern age with this.
Democracy using a much longer lens than even the last 100 years is a great experiment, not ordained by higher powers or a natural evolution that is enshrined in post-modern reality.  It takes work and sacrifice, it is not an entitlement.  Basically this could be the end of democracy if we sit back and let it happen. There is real danger in simply shrugging and declaring “slight dip” as if the upward trajectory is driven by greater forces.  Democracy will only survive if we want it to and make it happen.  We have seen it tried before in both Ancient Greece and Rome - albeit in different forms - and we abandoned it.  We can do it again…unless we consciously do not let it happen.

you guys are just a fountain of good vibes today!  Freakin glad I am already retired, and my life expectancy is such that I may be long dead before humanity implodes.

"Tearing it down" will introduce massive collective uncertainty into the last global superpower and roughly 330 million primates...many armed to the teeth.  It does not take a "smart and truly good person" to see how that will likely go.
The American Experiment is, at its roots, a massive social test.  A test to see if our species has evolved to the point where a power sharing scheme like democracy can survive at scale.  I would say the jury is still out.

Oh, are we gay bashing?  Definitely the root of all our problems!  I thought it was jews but the insightful & informative views here have convinced me it's actually the gays.  Or is it the muslims?  I can't keep up on who is currently destroying western culture/society so thanks for all this information on things that really matter.  Why, in the US 20 years ago we were told how gay marriage would destroy america, and it certainly has!  

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

Let's cut people facing an existential threat for them and their families a little slack. My country has plenty of things to regret under far less serious circumstances.

This. The war in Ukraine is getting people thinking about it but the first terrorist attack on a city conducted by heat seeking, pattern recognition driven autonomous drones is going to galvanize the entire West.

While the delay in approving further American aid for Ukraine is regrettable and has likely resulting in Ukraine losing more ground and infrastructure lately, does any else feel that a positive outcome of all of this is that it has spurred Europe to act more decisively in bringing forward their own aid and future commitments?

In the long run, that seems to be a very positive development.

Just can’t stay away.  I think you secretly like us and want to be on this thread.  But maybe someone hurt you?  C’Mon, admit it - this thread is far more fun than that other one.
To answer you question:
Find a wide array of open source beacons.  Internet is full of them.  Our real strength here is we have people in-country who can access the RUS sphere and translate.
Filter out the clearly partisan ones.  Objectivity is out there, you just have to work. ISW, RUSI, War on the Rocks, Oryx to name a few, all have pretty solid reputations for presenting either raw data, or good professional analysis by people actually in the business.
Cross check, a lot. We usually get an X video or somesuch but one needs to get a bunch of eyes on it.  Weigh opinions and merits of actual arguments as they relate to observed phenomenon.
Find some experts. You are not an expert. An internet account does not make you one.  I am an expert.  But…and here is the main point, you don’t have to agree with me.  Instead you should weigh my assessment against other experts…somewhere in the middle is likely the best guess for a truth.
Spend some time on “what we are not seeing but should”.  A lot of clues and details in the negatives.  

Roll that all up, take notes, do the work, ask real questions.  Then keep your eyes open because this whole thing is likely going to change…and fast.
The whole point of this thread is to try and make sense of the first real conventional peer war of the 21st century.  Its aim is to try and cut through the noise and find signals.  Big muscle movements in thought at this point need big proof.  If you think Russia is winning and going to win, you need more than “well let me tell you”.
Most importantly at this point you need to shush.  Type less, read more.  Come back with some good questions in a bit and you might get some civil answers.

Seriously guys, why are we (yet again) feeding the troll?
It's not like he has anything useful or even coherent to say, or is objectively considering counter points from various people, so... Why? 
It's just clutter, now. 
 

Well we can’t and probably won’t in our lifetimes.  The “truth” is a floating point of agreement (are disagreement) among humans.  We are essentially a species with brains big enough to invent the big beautiful fictions.  We believe in them so hard that they may as well be true because they create conative impulse.  I don’t believe in God but Holy Wars are still going to happen.
As to the weird string of political conspiracies (John Kettler is that you?).  In my experience in government, conspiracies are the rare exception - and they usually get caught out…that is how we know about them.  Governments leak like sburke after a few beers on a good day.  Most TS stuff is over classified and sitting on 00’s era desktops.  The government can barely get above board things done let alone wage an effective mid/dis information campaign against its people.  The governments that can have to spend a ridiculous amount of time and energy, over a long period of time, to even get close.  Russia tries very hard but we know there are holes in the fence.  Hell even NK is not fully able to fully insulate its population from outside info.
So while people like you are digging bunkers and fitting for aluminum hats, the reality is that governments are big slow moving bureaucracies good at only one thing…protecting the bureaucracy.  
Beyond that I am not sure what Neo/Matrix thing you are really talking about.  The war?  The causes of the war?  The progress of the war?  We will never really know the truth about any of it in some universal truth because no such human truth exists outside of science.  How do I know gravity works like they tell me?  Well go jump off a building.  As to the rest it is best guesses and close enough.  We can see what we can see.
What is really weird is that the Information Age should make it impossible to lie.  One can quickly verify a lie in the ocean of information out there…that was the theory.  But what did we do with that ocean of info?  We saw more lies!  We linked patterns that are not there.  Are you being lied to…definitely.  And what should bake you noodle is that because you are a human being the front and center culprit in those lies are not XYZ…it is you, to yourself.  We lie to ourselves all the time.  We filter, bias, ignore, reject and spin every time you look in the mirror.  We lie to ourselves about everything all the time.  Welcome to humanity.  

Putin's invasion plans were formulated on Hunter Biden's laptop.  They were created while he and George Soros were vacationing at Jeffery Epstein's place at the same time that Hilary Clinton was discussing a marketing plan with Epstein to use a Pizza place as a front for child trafficking.  I seem to remember this was close to the same time Jewish Space lasers were lighting up California forests because we hadn't properly raked them like they do in Finland.  I remember all this because right about then I was sticking light bulbs up my anus to kill Covid.
See it all makes sense now right?

Not sure if this was posted earlier or not. The details of the navies procurement fiascoes is certainly interesting in a train wreck kind of way. The really interesting bit though is that he spends the live five minutes of the video more or less begging for future procurement decisions to be tested in good and competitive simulations before you spend several tens of billions of dollars.
So can we have  a modern game now? Pretty please? Land warfare or the Taiwan straight, I'm flexible. 😅

the greatest nation in the world -- held hostage by lunatics due to the unbelievable cowardice of GOP congressmen & women and a GOP voter base-cult that's so brainwashed it doesn't even know where reality even begins anymore.  Disgraceful and sickening.  

We actually have no idea what Putin’s real base of genuine support is or is not.  First off he controls any and all “polls” either directly or indirectly so trying to gauge who really supports him, who is pretending simply to avoid trouble and who opposes but is afraid to say anything, in real terms is basically impossible to do inside Russia, let alone outside looking in.  “Look a bunch of people lined up to support him” is not a viable basis for deductions.
Second problem is that support, in a functioning democracy, is founded on a basis of “informed decision”.  This means that all sides can spin, argue and slant but in the end the news media and objective journalism is supposed to provide a voter with a range of diverging viewpoints and facts.  Voters can then decide who to support, or not support based on their own personal perception and understanding.  This is damned hard to do in a functioning liberal democracy; however, in Russia it is likely impossible.  Putin controls the mainstream media - we have heard endless stories of dissenters being arrested or charged, hell he passed laws making criticism of this war illegal.  He also has a lot of control within social media, suppressing sites and flooding the RUSNet with stooges.  We have seen enough outright lies and insane claims out of Russian media in the last two years to know that the average Russian simply is not able to access much beyond what Putin wants them to see and hear.  Under these conditions “real support” is nearly impossible because no alternative facts, ideas or even options are ever presented.
Finally, as our Ukrainian friends like to point out continually, the average Russian is poorly educated, poor wealth and largely ignorant…this is why they keep signing up for this war.  To now accuse these people of “knowingly supporting Putin” as if they have access to alternatives is short-sighted at best.  Further, Kraze’s continued insistence to call every living Russian on the planet as vicious war loving murders is not only disingenuous, it treads dangerously close to genocidal narratives that have no place on what is supposed to be a rational objective forum.  We know Russians opposed this war, a few hundred thousand ran away.  Others are resisting passively.  We also know that many really do not even understand what this war is or is not because Putin is preventing them from seeing any truth but his own.  We also know some Russians also buy into this war and Putin fully even knowing the reality.  In the end we are going to have to deal with all of them in some form or another because as much as some people are acting out emotionally here, we are not going to wipe Russia off the face of the earth and salt the ground on their mass graves.
So be pissed off, but do not come here and promote outright disinformation in some sort of weird attempt to get us to all buy into some “every Russian is evil and must die” nonsense.  There are all sorts of sites on the internet where people on both sides can engage in that emotional orgy, but it should not be here.  The second this forum becomes one of those places, I for one, am out.
 

I can fully understand and sympathize with their positions and sentiments.  But lies are lies, no matter who is pushing them.  We either try and hold onto objective truth or we can just become another echo chamber showing one sided war porn and offering weak analysis.  We are challenged enough to avoid our own biases without completely abandoning what this entire thread was supposed to do in the first place.  I oppose disinformation no matter the source.

You can go to Siberia for a PR stunt, or you can go to Siberia for railroad sabotage. Choose wisely.

There is some truth to the idea that militaries are an extension of the people who make them, however, one cannot become too focused on political ideology as the sole source of an overall school of doctrine.  History, resources, infrastructure, culture, environment and even things as simple as education and literacy all play important roles in how a military is generated and employed.  We can see vast differences in communist military approaches, for example.  North Vietnam had a very different approach than the Soviets, as did China and other non-Soviet communist states.  Western militaries also differed, not only internally but over time.  There is a vast difference in US military doctrine as it went from conscription to an all volunteer force.  Its conscription based force actually favoured mass until the 70s as did many other western nations.
I think this risks dangerous oversimplification of the issue.  Ukraine is on a democracy spectrum, not a full fledge liberal democratic state yet.  Russia is also technically a democracy, but far more in the “locked in” autocratic/oligarch end.  Neither Ukraine or Russia are communist states (see their economic systems).  So boiling this all down to Russia = dictatorship = communism = Soviet system: Ukraine = democracy = western system, is a serious oversimplified lens through which to view the situation on just about every point of the algorithm.  
The initial Russian invasion was constructed pretty much as we expected - BTGs under Brigade formations.  The nature of the assault was multi-axis manoeuvre designed to overwhelm an opponent.  The RA did not employ a Soviet style military approach here, they were much closer to western military philosophy and doctrine - fast moving warfare based on strategies of rapid annihilation through manoeuvre.  We did not see MRDs in an echeloned system designed to attack in multiple waves or the massive fires complex that are hallmarks of the Soviet system - in fact if Russia had gone with a Soviet style attack, with the numbers behind it, they may very well have won.  No the RA tried to employ what was basically a western style opening attack but it failed, nearly completely.  Now why it failed is interesting and two camps have sprung up.  The main one is that “Russia Sux” and cannot do western doctrine, despite trying to look like us, for various reasons - a BTG is nothing more than a type of Battle Group.  The other camp is of the mind the RA failed because conditions on the modern battlefield have changed.  The first camp has been the loudest but the evidence in support of the second is growing.
The western school is far more than training and kit - it is a deeper military philosophy that generates strategy, which in turn generates campaigns…pretty much like the Soviet school but taking very different routes to get to a similar end-state.  Now as the war has progressed the RA quickly saw that their was little hope for them by holding onto the western doctrinal school, they appear have to fallen back on mass but even here in small bite sized chunks…why?  This is the Soviet style but descaled.  The immediate answer to this descaling was “Russia Sux..LOLZ” but this does not make sense.  Russia managed a 5-6 axis, high speed operation at the beginning of the war but cannot figure out a Battalion level attack two-years in?  The good news is that it appears the Soviet approach is also under constraints based on the environment as well.  High concentration is too dangerous so they too have to de-aggregate.
As to the UA the idea you appear to be proposing is the “one more XYZ and they can win” idea.  It is that if we can only make the UA more like us, enough, that victory will somehow happen.  This does not match observations either.  Ukraine started this war fighting hybrid.  Mixes of conventional and unconventional defence along the entire length of the RAs overstretched operational system.  That was not western doctrine nor Soviet, it was something we have seen in COIN but upscaled and empowered.  The core C2 component of the Soviet style system is centralized control and task-command.  We saw neither of these from Ukraine in the opening days of the war.  They were far more western in that resistance in that regard.
Last summer was a testament and watershed moment.  It is well documented that the UA had a lot of western equipment and tens of thousands of western trained troops. The UA tried Bn level mechanized breaches in the centre south that are straight out of the western manuals.  They clearly trained for them in Europe and operationalized them.  They also failed…dramatically.  So either the Ukrainians can’t do western (another narrative that sprung up) or there are weaknesses in the western technology based approach on these battlefields.  I argue the latter.  The single largest one is the over-dependence of the western system on air superiority.  Without that the entire western school starts to fail.  And in the modern UAS environment air superiority is impossible.  So it won’t matter how much western equipment and training we provide, our current doctrine looks like it will not work on this battlefield.  So what?  We need a new doctrine.
It really doesn’t, in Ukraine and both sides have pulled back from the western style approach as they have been pulled into an attrition war. The western school vs Soviet school is less about politics and more about military strategies. Both were built for Annihilation strategies but the Soviet school has a far higher tolerance for attrition warfare.  Ukraine has kept the high technology approach but western style manoeuvre is simply undoable in this environment at any scale.  Or it may take a scale so high that it looks more Soviet than anything else.
Your position sounds an awful lot like the militaries of WW1 - one more push and we are through. But now they just need more F16s.  The Russians have taken the same philosophy but are basing it on human capital and not kit.  I suspect both camps are incorrect.  The western school of rapid overwhelming manoeuvres may be dead due to nearly complete battlefield illumination and modern friction.  Dumb mass is definitely dead for essentially the same reasons.
Neither side will adopt either the Western or Soviet approach in full because both of these schools are 80 years old and designed for a different time.  The Western school cannot deal with a modern attrition based war and the Soviet one cannot deal with the technological realities.  Neither schools can address the realities of denial and friction we are seeing.  So we are going to see the evolution of something else.  And our job over here in the safe sidelines is to try and stay out of Ukraine’s way while they figure it out…and take notes.
In summary, both militaries started this war more western than Soviet.  It worked for the Ukrainians on defence but has failed them on offence.  The Russians started with a more western-style approach on offence but once it failed ran back into the loving arms of Soviet doctrine on defence.
The Russian have tried a much smaller scaled down version of Soviet style on offence and it has provided limited gains at horrendous costs.  Ukraine has tried western style offensives, also at smaller scales, which have essentially done as well as the Soviet system, but with much lower casualties.  So here we are, neither school is really working on offence but can do defence.  Hence the growing belief that we are into something larger than either school - defensive primacy.
So, solutions.  Well doubling down on either school is likely a dead end. We probably need a new school entirely.  One we have not seen yet.  This war, and the next one will be a race of adaptations.  We have yet to see where it will end.
My position is that neither the Western or Soviet schools are working in this war, even though they have been attempted.  We should not even try to make the UA more like the US Army at this point.  Nor will expunging “Soviet legacy” fix the situation for Ukraine.  I suspect we have yet to see a new school of military art and thought emerge.  It is largely built on a foundation of artificial intelligence/forward processing that can create massed precision fires.  Both sides appear to be trying to figure out this problem, my money is that Ukraine is ahead in the game but not unassailable.