niall78
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Posts posted by niall78
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Maybe it's projection and Jason's feeling guilty about his love affair with the long 75...
A bad case of cannon envy maybe?
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Is it just my imagination or do many of the posters in this thread imagine that inevitably in an unbalanced scenario they will be the ones on the short end of the stick? Can they not imagine how much fun it can be to simply trounce the other side? Grab them by the throat and pin them against the wall and proceed to deconstruct them with a maximum of violence? Isn't there some dark corner of your soul that would delight in that? Come on, 'fess up, it'll do you good.
Michael
That's actually way more uninteresting than any last stand type game. At least then you can go down swinging with pride. A win with overwhelming odds is a soulless experience.
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He has a point worthy of an actual discussion and he hasn't resorted to some ridiculously stupid and baseless statements about what the designers do or don't like.
Oddball has a point and makes it well and his views should be respected.
While I like the odd lost cause scenario I don't see it being a good theme for an entire game. As a player I'd find constant no hope battles a chore. The whole discussion is really just the age old war-gaming conundrum of realism and historical accuracy versus fun.
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Any game will be balanced artificially. Otherwise it is zero fun as a game for the vast majority of players.
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Actually, I don't think anyone is suggesting that "pretty even" skirmishes were the norm historically, merely that is what most people enjoy wargaming.
Players enjoy balance. If a game system can't provide a fun balance within its battles it is finished. That's why realistic Zulu versus British tactical battle simulators are thin on the ground.
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A 'representative' battle against a fortified position would probably involve the location being bypassed then systematically reduced with artillery before being mopped up. That was the singular failure of Hitler's fortress scheme (You'd think he would have learned something from the Maginot line). It might be instructive as a tactical exercise but I'm not sure it would be fun to play. Despite the historical accuracy nobody has expressed much desire to begin a battle with a prolonged Katyusha bombardment on top of the Germans.
That's what I don't get about this thread. I can see how a radically unbalanced scenario might be fun once or twice but why would anyone want the majority of campaigns or scenarios to be unbalanced in such a way? you'd have to be a masochist to enjoy them on a constant basis. It would do zero for sales either.
Would a dream campaign for those wanting such masochism involve the first battle being a German company with no AT and limited ammo facing off against fifty T-34s and a regiment of infantry following a six hour barrage by multiple artillery assets? Then seven or eight battles where Soviet heavy tanks pursue the shattered survivors? While historically accurate it makes for dull gaming. Any game without balance is dull as dish water.
While a few hold the Soviets up scenarios would be fun I certainly wouldn't like the focus of the game to be multiple battles in which my forces are expected to be little more than a speed bump.
This goes for any time period, in any era, in any game system - radically unbalanced battles are not fun. Used sparingly they have their place - a niche within a niche hobby.
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The point I'm trying to make here is that the russians severely outnumbered the germans in most situations and yet that doesn't shine through in most scenarios I've played so far.
You are equating strategic production numbers over the entire war with numbers of units in use during a tactical engagement over a tiny area that lasts an hour or so. I don't see the connection to be honest.
All scenarios are a tiny snapshot off time. They could be represented by any force mix and size for either force and still be historically correct as at the micro level we play at nearly any combination of things did happen.
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It's the same reason why scerario designers within the community don't build 'Starving out of supply 103rd Infantry division, 1st Regiment, 2nd Battalion get steam-rolled by 3rd Tank Shock Army' - Russians lose VC if the game isn't over in four turns. They just aren't interesting.
Any kind of game that isn't in some way balanced is boring. Holding a half a mile of front with an out of ammo understrength company against fifty t-34s with supporting infantry and an hour long barrage to begin with might be historically correct but it isn't fun to play from either side. There's no challenge with the Russians and zero hope with the Germans.
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Great work Juju. A permanent addition to my Z folder.
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Amazing Fuser. Thank you.
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Anyone remember the entire Russian Campaign game from Strategy & Tactics (late 70s/early 80s). I seem to remember 9 maps that made up the entire theatre almost covered my living room floor and there were over a thousand pieces. By the time I set everything up for the start of Barbarossa, I was already bored. I wonder if anyone ever actually played it through, just keeping all the material in place would really limit most people's ability.
I have to say, I prefer small scenarios. Platoon size seems to suit me best: maybe that says I should never aspire to anything higher than lieutenant.
Those bigger games were mental. Flat Top, Axis & Allies and ASL were as deep as I dared go. I've read on broad game forums where people would play vast campaign games like that in attics with a playing time that went into years.
I liked pushing counter but thank god for computers taking so much of the work load off the player letting them concentrate on actually playing the game.
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That's kind of what HoI is all about. And if you start with the pre-war and play one of the major powers, it may well take you a month to play it through.
Michael
Played plenty of strategic games including HoI. I thought he meant play the whole war out at a CM level on one giant map! Twenty real years to do the set-up phase!
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Great work Kieme - these are going straight in my Z folder as soon as they go up on GaJ.
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One day, maybe you can play the whole war on one single map
The thought has me salivating.
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Small is OK but to me, size matters - the bigger the better.
I'd happily play multi-battalion actions that take a month to play in WEGO.
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This isn't really an either-or situation though. I'd say they all played a role, along with confusion and friction created amongst British by the carpet bombing, delays in getting through 6th ABs unmarked minefields, severely restricted deployment and maneauvre space, lack of fire support as the British soon advanced beyond the range of their artillery and the one FAC available was KOd early, and a little bit of help from the GAF division that was otherwise obliterated.
I agree entirely. There's a train of thought that suggest official reports and unit histories on the British side embraced Von Lucks 88mm battery story to cover for major deficiencies in the planning and execution of Goodwood.
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Niall, I know very little about this engagement. Could you suggest a title for further reading? (Besides the Colonel's memoirs, OC.)
I have :
Which is a pretty good overview. If a bit dry.
The operation also features heavily in the different unit history's of the 21st Panzer Division, the 1st SS Panzer Division and various British unit histories. Most decent Normandy campaign books will also have a Chapter on Goodwood that'll give you a good starting point.
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Okay, that may put a different light on the matter. Thanks, niall. Goes to show how hard it can be to pin these things down. Now all we need for someone to show up with a record that a truck engaged with cleaning up the battlefield was destroyed in that location, scattering spent casings...
Michael
I'm not sure myself if the story is completely rooted in facts - as you say pinning these things down is very difficult and there's certainly room for doubt in Von Lucks story unless primary sources can verify the story. Von Lucks military achievements and major experiences aren't in doubt though unlike a lot of German WW2 personal memoirs.
It amazes me that even for major well known operations like Goodwood that have been written about for decades there is still such fog covering incidents such as Von Lucks story.
Who stymied the assault? Was if Von Luck and this mystery Luftwaffe Flak battery. Was it Major Alfred Becker's Assault-Gun Battalion 200. It probably wasn't Heavy Tank Battalion 503 that had been carpet bombed and need to dig their tanks out and fix their optics. Panthers sniping from up on the Bourgebois Ridge didn't arrive till later in the day. It's all very confusing.
On a side note Major Alfred Becker's unit is very interesting. It contained a lot of improvised armour units - I'd love to have more detail on what exactly was the strange ToE of this Assault-Gun Battalion. Becker could well be the unsung hero of Goodwood from the German side - Luck's story overshadowing his own.
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This came up a year or so back and was soundly discredited. I think the proof was that there was no such unit in that area at the time.
Michael
It's disputed/discredited by a writer who analysed aerial photos of the battle but did zero primary research in the German or British archives.
There's the issue of what exactly knocked out so many British tanks if it wasn't this 88mm battery and there's no doubting Lucks military record in general.
There's a very interesting discussion here :
http://www.ww2f.com/topic/45330-hans-von-luck-and-the-cagny-88s-fact-or-fiction/
Including aerial photos and a guy writing a book who dug up dozens of 88mm shell cases in a position Luck indicated was probably the position of the battery.
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Well, it's von Luck's memoir, and he wasn't the most modest of characters . . .
From a military stand point he had little to be modest about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Luck
Wiki has a bit about the 88mm battery and Operation Goodwood :
Luck set out for the front, and to his dismay saw a large contingent of British tanks rolling over what had been the dug in positions of I Battalion/125th Panzer Grenadier Regiment, in the direction of Cagny. Spotting a Luftwaffe Flak battery of 88mm guns, Luck ordered the commander to open fire on the flank of the British tanks. The battery commander, a young captain, refused to do so, as he was under orders to engage enemy aircraft. At this refusal Luck drew his service pistol, leveled it at the man and said "Either you're a dead man or you can earn yourself a medal."[21] The battery thus engaging the enemy, Luck spent the remainder of the day furiously trying to plug the gaps in his line. Most of the Kampfgruppes armour had been destroyed in the heavy barrages earlier in the day, so it was left to a few scattered antitank and assault gun batteries to take on the advancing British tanks. In recent years the truth of this portrayal of Luck's guns has been questioned by academics such as Ian Daglish who have studied the aerial photographs of Cagny taken hours after the battle; these show no sign of an 88mm battery or even that one had been positioned in the village. However, no suitable alternative seems to explain the heavy destruction wrought on 11th Armoured.
Assuming the story is fact, the 88mm guns at Cagny had indeed stopped the British advance, inflicting heavy casualties on the 11th Armoured Division. The following division, the Guards Armoured Division did not heed the fate of the 11th, and it too took massive losses in the area, effectively halting the British armoured advance. Advancing without infantry support, the armour units were unable to overcome the entrenched antitank guns. The Luftwaffe 88mm battery Luck commandeered earlier in the day accounted for about 40 British tanks alone. In the afternoon the first elements of the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler had moved up in support and the situation was somewhat stabilized.
During 19 July Luck's Kampfgruppe, still supported by the SS armour, held the British at bay, counterattacking on the flanks and causing them heavy losses. The British advance ground to a halt after having covered only 9 km, and suffering the loss of some 450 tanks. In the evening the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend relieved Luck's men. For his important role in defeating the British in Operation Goodwood Luck earned the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross on 8 August 1944 as Major and leader of the Panzergreandier-Regiment 125 and was promoted to Oberstleutnant.[22]
I found his sense of forgiveness and understanding (if those are the right words) for his trials inside a Russian Gulag at the end of the war very refreshing. He also made friends with his old adversaries in Normandy. He came across as a decent man.
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Come on, Niall. Don't leave us hanging.
Who won? The Colonel or the Commander?
The Colonel won the contest of wills. The battery commander was spared a bullet and became a hero disabling many British tanks.
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Which was, of course, exactly their intended role. They were secondarily used to provide indirect fire support. Only tertiarily(?) were they used in an AT role, and only then in second or third lines. This was the case in GOODWOOD, where they were positioned several kilometres (Cagny was about 5km behind the front?) behind the front line.
Edit: III FK claimed 80 tank kills with the 88, but we know what that means.
I was reading 'Panzer Commander: The Memoirs of Colonel Hans von Luck' recently. After his front had been smashed by carpet bombing he came across an 88mm battery that had a good field of fire on the flank of the Goodwood advance. Von Luck claims in the book to having to pulled his pistol and threaten the battery commander to get him to engage the British tanks in a direct role. The battery commander didn't believe it was his job to directly engage armour and favoured pulling back and setting up his guns in an Anti-aircraft role in a different position.
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Beautiful work Vincenzo. Thanks for the effort - it went straight into my Z folder.
Are you thinking of doing a mod like this for the German forces?
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Amazing. Thank you for your hard work.
[RELEASED] Concrete Bunker (German)
in CM Red Thunder Maps and Mods
Posted
Great work Kieme. Grabbed this and your very nice wooden bunker.