Strategiclayabout

Hi lhugues41 , - So far I didn't see a Sealion in any of my AoD games. Seems most players including me prefer to concentrate everything on USSR. Don't think there was any change in last patch for that, I'll need to check. - Actually I even saw some players "inviting" Hitler to try a Sealion by leaving nearly no defense around London hoping to trap Germans there in a long campaign and weaken Barbarossa ' . - The bad points for Sealion: 1) nearly no plunder 2) low base MPPs for ressource tiles (no rail link to Berlin) 3) low supply (need at least 1 HQ to do anything) 4) need quite many units to defend/conquer it 5) raises USSR-US % mobilization 6) reduces but doesn't prevent Allies come back because of loops 7) small time window and difficult terrain in the north 8) units lost in amphib transports/low supply can't be bought at half-cost 9) RN obvious superiority on the seas - The good points: 1) cut UK convoys (especially UK-USSR one) 2) more or less eliminates UK from the war 3) eliminates all units in UK production queue 4) protects Axis from Allies bombing campaigns 5) weakens any D-Day offensive/landings, delays Allies come back in the West 6) makes Kriegsmarine free to sail in the Atlantic and beyond - I think the raise in USSR % mobilization is the main point preventing players to try Sealion. It's just too dangerous to gamble with USSR war entry: mess it up and it's game over in most cases. - So I suppose possible gains don't outweight risks. You absolutely need to have a strategy from the start to make the most of it, any improvised Sealion is likely to fail.

Thanks Hubert and all in the team for the hard work and hearing players continual rants as always .

- I agree with both of you on L-tanks, the 2 strikes can deal a lot of damage to HQs or weak units. I was a bit surprised to see panzers launched east of Rostov so late in 1941. I usually think it's better to grab cities to secure supply before consolidating the front. - Here the historical Mius river defensive line would help especially when Germans still have all those small pockets in the rear/along the coast. Having Kharkov also deprives Axis of good defensive terrain down to Taganrog for the Winter. - In the end it's a reversed Kursk salient, quite an interesting situation I must say ^^ . Very entertaining game as always so thanks and keep it going !

I second that , Not easy to make all those adjustments as things go on, well done !

- We discussed it before but the problem can be Chungqing. The chances to recapture it as Allies are very low, it nearly always falls to Japs and usually early. It's easier for Allies to go for 2 points victory as Tokyo is more vulnerable than the chinese capital ! - It also explains why axis players are more willing to play to the end since their 1 point victory conditions are easier. But other than that since we have people playing each other for the first time. Because of skill difference or some moves and strategies are unknown it can lead to complete collapse quickly. - I don't know for others but when I surrendered early there was no hope at all to do anything. One-sided games arn't very fun . Most of those factors will probabaly even out after some time/games though . P.S.: sad to hear that about Amona, hope he'll be well whatever the problem is.

Hi , Saw something for the first time while playing a first turn of CtA break (last patch): a serbian detachment at 5 supply advanced, was ambushed by an austrian corps, retreated and then still had 3AP at the end with ability to move :eek: .

- The Red Sea loops are just that: safer but takes longer than historical moves so I still find them ok. - Increasing naval AP would clearly destroy the naval game as it is. DDs with a 60+ range would more than cover convoy lanes spotting subs each turn. You would have to change their convoy attack result to an immediate one at the end of axis turn instead of the one we have where Allies can negate sub attacks on convoys if they spot them on their turn. - I also agree there would be a need to change the naval supply system with such increased ranges. Porbably something like losing 1 supply per turn unless being in a port to resupply. You wouldn't need the supply range from ports (blue numbers on sea tiles) anymore.

I second that. - Not that bog a problem but I'm quite curious why Italy is "half-active" at the start of the game (same with OE) ? It allows to move some units and grab some MPPs but besides being Major countries is there any reason not to activate them like minors are when their mobilization reach 100% ? - And actually the spotting thing isn't limited to ports as land units can see enemies two tiles away (no cavalry for Italy or OE early). So no surprise assault possible for CP from the austrian border. Any troop concentration will be spotted quickly. In one way I suppose you can see that as some kind of intel provided by a soon-to-be ally.

Hi there , - My humble take on the loops after thinking how it affects game balance. Not that easy to touch that kind of thing without changing anything else. - We can still continue playing as it is to see how it goes now that players are aware of what happened in my game. I understand what Gary said in his mail about proper defensive planning but remember I believed home defense units would pop like for Australia when enemies are close (should happen but didn't happen). I just kept one unit in Tokyo and that was actually what caused Japan's collapse since Osaka was captured first. It would have been better for me to leave no unit at all in Japan !!! * GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS - With the US Japan loop five units can appear 4-5 tiles away from Tokyo without being detected and be free to move/attack before Japs can react. US amphibs already have 10 AP (JP 9, UK 7, AX 5) and I don't think they need more help to move faster/farther. Just imagine a loop from Tokyo to Los Angeles or one from The Baltic to Washington: not cool to say the least. - There are also other strange possible situations: a jap task force advance on Midway mid-42 from Japan and find enemies in its back because the loop units couldn't be intercepted making sub or destroyer screens useless. Same with a player sending an US attack force through the US-Japan loop 1 or 2 turns before USA reaches full mobilization. That means US carriers can attack Japan while IJN is still around Pearl Harbor... - You can consider the whole loop advantage is due to Allies superiority in intelligence/transmissions/logictics (ultra & co). It's true allied troop convoys suffered low casualties through the war so loops can be seen as a way to mimic that "immunity" though axis raiders managed to attack some of them (Admiral Hipper vs WS 5A convoy in South Atlantic 24-25/12/40). - Yes it's only 5 arrows/units so if you use them for amphibs you still need support to come from/in open waters. But it's also 5 units per turn and if Japs detect the support it's complicated to attack because that will leave the coast open. - All in all the loops push Japan to hole up in the mainland or attack Hawaï/US west coast to negate them. The whole island defensive perimeter thing has no meaning as well as aerial recon. Same for Germany as sending subs near US East Coast to intercept transports or amphibs is just suicide. - Other "options" would be to picket the loop areas with destroyers or subs. Quite hard to do near the West Coast and it won't block arriving units unless you use enough ships. It could be fun in a sci-fi game where wormholes are obvious strategic targets but for WWII not so much . - Another possibility would be to put the arrows farther away from coasts and land based aerial support while spreading them. It would give a chance to intercept them in open waters but would somehow defeat the whole anti-micro-management argument. - A last one would be to reduce the number of arrows. One arrow for one "special" convoy a month by loop to simulate Allies advantages in different areas. But whole fleets warping all over the place is a bit... * ATLANTIC-PACIFIC LOOPS - We all agree those ones are needed I think . * RED SEA LOOPS (US & UK) - The most annoying ones since they balance naval movement delays quite well. Some convoy data from here: http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys03-1940.htm AP1 28/08/40 to 23/09/40 from Liverpool to Suez (Egypt) 3 ships AP2 22/08/40 to 26/09/40 from Liverpool to Suez (Egypt) 1 ship AP3 10/09/40 to 22/10/40 from Liverpool to Suez (Egypt) 10 ships WS1 29/06/40 to 29/07/40 from Liverpool to Trincomalee (Ceylon) 3 ships WS4B 17/11/40 to 28/12/40 From Liverpool to Suez (Egypt) 10 ships - So it's around 1 month for fast convoys and 1,5 for slow ones (vs 5 turns/monthes ingame). In game terms that should be equal to 1 turn loop. Without the loop a naval transport at 21AP needs 12 turns or close to a year for the same trip. You would need to multiply naval AP by 6 to get realistic travel times. - Ingame you also have 62 tiles between Liverpool and Alexandria or a three turns delay through the Med with 21 AP. It should be half the Red Sea travel time or only 1 turn meaning tripling naval AP. To eliminate the Red Sea loop you would have to keep the x3 AP as a basis while allowing force march for naval units. * USA-JAPAN LOOP - Sure Axis players can put more units in Japan to avoid surprise loop attacks. But what's the point of strategic Pacific Islands then ? What's more is that it doesn't prevent bad surprises at all: an infantry unit entrenched to 4 (or 6 max in Tokyo) would be deentrenched by just 3 attacks (one amphib hit -1, SF land -2, second amphib hit -1, SF land -2 total -6). Then carriers can blow away the jap unit and remaining amphib occupy the tile (GAR units or planes are out of question). - To protect Japan against the loop you would need to keep too many units sitting there doing nothing including air and naval units. You can say it's a way to reduce Japan commitment in China but frankly I'd prefer less units at start. You need at least 4 infantry units to defend Tokyo, Nagoya, Matsuyama and Nagasaki (ports in range of amphibs as they appear 4-5 tiles away). - But you'll also need one to protect the strait near Wakayama because if it's captured, Hiroshima and all your ressources convoys are wide open. As amphibs can move after landing, they can also grab Kyoto and Osaka (the second capital) by landing between Wakayama and Nagoya. That means at least 3 more units not counting Okinawa and Iwo Jima that are also in range. If US invest in amphib tech you can also include Sendai north of Tokyo. - The problem is made worse by the Japan Home Defense event glitch (no pop units before 43 it seems). Having US land (or show up) in force near Tokyo with no reaction by Imperial Forces isn't realistic at all. So you can't reinforce Japan in time to avoid a collapse because you need at least 2 turns to operate/naval transport troops (if you still have a free port in southern Japan. Even if you have some units already there the possible damage from a couple of amphib (even unupgraded divisions) is just way too big. * USA-AUSTRALIA LOOP - You have around 80 tiles between the loop entrance and the Coral Sea or four turns with 21AP. The loop is 3 turns and though you get 21 AP when coming out you need one turn to reach the loop entrance so the only argument here would be micro-management. I don't think it's enough to give that kind of "stealth" advantage to Allies. - If you consider the Yorktown carrier was active both for the Coral Sea (4-8 May 1942) and Midway (4-7 June 1942) battles it's a one month delay again covering more or less 60 tiles or 3 turns worth of regular naval movement. AUSTRALIA-DEI LOOP - More or less the same, a turn difference between the loop (2) and regular naval movement (3) but here too you need one turn to reach the loop entrance while you get 21AP once out. So the use is quite limited but still give an edge to Allies. * USA-NORTH ATLANTIC LOOP - You can sail faster with regular transports so the only argument here would not even be micro-management but helping USA to reconquer UK after a victorious Sealion. But then again with 10AP for US amphib you can do it without the loop from Iceland (only 3 turns, 2 with full amphib tech levels). USA-BAY OF BISCAY LOOP - You can amphib from England so the only argument here is allowing amphib against France if UK proper falls I suppose (or having the possibility to amphib an axis UK from the north and the south though I don't see many Sealions in AoD). USA-GULF OF CADIZ LOOP - Mostly to allow an operation Torch to run smoothly. However only the western part (atlantic landings) came directly from the US. The central and eastern forces came from UK. Allied navies also had to distract axis subs operating in the eastern Atlantic to avoid unpleasant surprises: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch - The landing of US forces could have been a disaster because of unpreparedness. Low morale/readiness after crossing the Atlantic would reflect that. Otherwise Allies can still grab a port nearby or launch from UK ports in Africa. That said most of the times Brits from Egypt walk over the Italians quickly and reach Casablanca from the east by the end of 1941 so well... As usual only my opinion so feel free to comment/criticize.

- I'm the best learning material around ! Isnogud took Osaka before Tokyo so it ruled out Seoul option for Japan it seems. (there was the same problem with taking Manchester before London preventing UK captital transfer to Canada or Egypt I think) - Reading my post 4 again I just saw it could be understood in an ironic/bad manner. (the script part wasn't worded in the best way) I apologize if that's the case: should have put some happy smileys in there .

Strategiclayabout (axis) vs Isnogud (allies) Axis surrenders in June 1942

No all jap units vanished so 2 points victory for you. Congratulations for conquering Japan with 6 US land units ! (and thanks for looking at the scripts)

EDIT: my opponent thinks jap home defense units only pop when enemies lands near Tokyo. If that's the case maybe it should be changed to include all of mainland Japan ?

Thanks for your AAR and congratulations for turning the tables Ash ^^ ! I think Will tried too much in the Caucasus. At some point, especially after your landing in Greece, it would have been better to shorten the front and build some reserves but well...

Hi , Just happened to me as Axis in a ladder game. * I believed there was some kind of home defense event when Japan is invaded ? But there was no unit pop and USA took the southern half of Japan with 3 units. Fortunately I always leave an unit in the capital otherwise it was game over. * I'm all for bold tactics but I find this situation completely ahistorical and ridiculous. True if I knew there was no event I would have kept more units there. But I think the USA to Japan loop allowing to teleport amphibs is a bit too much. What do you think people ?

Clausewitz (axis) vs Strategiclayabout (allies) game started Strategiclayabout (axis) vs Isnogud (allies) March 1942

Pacestick (axis) vs Strategiclayabout (allies) Axis surrenders in July 1943 Strategiclayabout (axis) vs Isnogud (allies) December 1941

COMMENTS General der Infanterie Ernst-Anton von Krosigk commander of 1st division. * * Land units: 91 to 120 MPPs lost: 506 to 674 MPPs total: 19,184 to 22,126 - What a turn ! Starting with the near complete collapse of the northern front and the encirclement of Brest-Litovsk then followed by hard decisions for Germans about attacking or not. And after deciding to go for it with everything at hand failing twice to reach critical objectives by the smallest margin was an excruciating feeling. - What's incredible is it seems like it was a major battle but MPPs losses are actually quite low. With their reinforcements arriving in the nick of time Germans could have wiped out the whole polish front in 0 supply with just a bit more luck (or less stupidity I agree : p). - Russians are in bad shape but can still react and worse they can operate freely around Lublin. Despite that they probbaly have no idea (yet) how strong german forces are now. If Brest can hold one more turn maybe there is still a chance to achieve something big but I'm afraid at least one more panzer will be lost in the process : ( .

CARPATHIA & ROMANIA * Utterly quiet again safe for minor attacks to consolidate the northern corner of the line. It's quite surprising not to see stronger attempts to rob the Ploesti oil fields but I'll gladly take it ! *

POLAND & HUNGARY * - Very quiet in Hungary but a lot of action in Poland ! The situation worsened faster than expected and truth to be told we're short two turns for a full scale offensive. Guderian and his trains are coming back full speed but are still somewhere in Eastern Prussia. - Fortunately it seems Stavka have no idea what's going on around Warsaw and politely declined our offer to battle with panzers for Siedlce. Actually enemy forces in the area dod nothing at all happy with safeguarding the eastern flank of the Brest-Litovsk encirclement. - An argument opposed Hansen and Roman about attacking at once or not the first being quite sure the chance was now or never. From his experience after the battles of Opochka and Ludza festungen letting Russians reinforce and build supply isn't an option. - On his side Roman thinks the Brest festung (elite 131div) can hold longer and it's better to wait for scheduled reinforcements. Ostheer only has one chance and should strike with all its might to break soviet advance in Poland. - What's clear is the conditions are nearly perfect for a counterattack with a wide gap in enemy lines already open. Russians also have thin supply lines while german have Warsaw to feed the fight. * - The dispute would have terrible consequences as the "compromise" they reached led to one of the worst mistake of the war. Tasked with the first and most critical move of Guderian's plan the 1st division was supposed to recon the way to Lublin. - However unsure of what his commanders had in mind General der Infanterie Ernst-Anton von Krosigk was too cautious. Though there was no opposition at all for miles he decided to stop and wait for aerial support upon reaching the town. - When the recon planes realized the whole area was empty with no defense at all it was already too late... Alerted Soviets were rushing any able man around to defend the supply depots including all pilots from nearby air bases. - Lublin was the only logistical center for two whole fronts including 3 tank groups, 7 armies and 4 divisions plus one artillery and 2 AT units. Taking it without firing a single shot would have been a decisive victory no doubt ! - The missed chance infuriated Hansen and he discarded all Roman objections to order a full scale assault. With Stavka still in the dark about the offensive true scale surprise could still be achieved and a victory gained. * - With their primary objective out of reach 1st panzer army switched to the secondary and more difficult one: Konev's HQ. The first push unfolded like a dream with 12 tank group flattened by veteran crews of 56Pz & 9 AT. The shock was such it even halved nearby 1G army sending it fleeing in terror for miles. - That complete collapse of the enemy left flank meant Hansen's intended target was wide open. Sadly and once again Ostheer fumbled at the decisive moment and unleashed 48Pz inexplicably failed to destroy the unprotected command center. - Konev's desperate defense cost Germans horrendeous casualties. Staff officers were seen throwing themselves at panzers with land mines strapped on their chests. In the end only a few survived but supply to forward units though limited was maintained. - However just when Hansen started to believe it was over and his gamble ended in an ignominous failure Guderian arrived to save the day ! No less than 10 corps including 2 panzers began to pour in from dozens of trains flooding the frontline and giving a new life to his ailing offensive. But is it too late ? Is victory still possible with those numerous but battered units ? *

FINLAND The HNLMS Gelderland, built for the Royal Netherlands Navy, seized by the Germans in 1940 and re-named the "Niobe". Sunk by Soviet bombers in Kotka harbor, on July 16, 1944. * * - Mannerheim managed to stop the Russians on the Salpa line at last ! Or more exactly the enemy decided to pause and regroup before renewing his assaults... Some reinforcements arrived to replenish frontline units but not many. - Reduced units were sent in the back to prepare a second defensive line between Kouvola and Kotka. A small naval german force tried to disrupt soviet preparations but took casualties from air attacks instead. * Red artillery pounding Lappeenranta railway station. *

BIELORUSSIA & BALTIC STATES * - The last link between Brest-Litovsk and the Reich along the Vilna railroad was severed quickly. Hordes of Russians (Reserve tank, 7G cav, 1 polish, 40 & 70 armies, 328 & 336div) just rolled over our weak 52 security div but increasing supply problems and an heroic defense by 267div prevented further gains. - Our positions on the Neman further north are still strong and only face lesser units but Manstein knows tanks are lurking in the rear. With pressure reaching dangerous levels on his southern flank he's glad to have most of his units ready to evacuate by rail. - However the light screen (207 & 371div) established around Postavy didn't last long and was pulverized by a concentration of mobile red troops (1 belorussian tank, Moscow and Mobile mech, 11G & 31 armies). - But thanks to their sacrifice most of our forces were able to reach the trains waiting to send them in Poland. Sadly Loch our hero from the Velikaya was trailing too far behind after covering the retreat of his men and was caught by advancing 42 army... - Guderian probably still has enough men to regroup and defend the Riga-Kaunas line but he has other plans ! Order is given to evacuate all AGN & AGC units and leave Bielorussia and the Baltic States behind with only skeleton crews remaining in key locations. *

CH11: Guderian Strikes Back (19-24 August 1944) * Bad news all over this turn even from outside the map as we lose the "Gai Paris" to US Brutes . Von Choltitz refused to burn the city to the ground as ordered by the Führer but we certainly won't fail to destroy Warsaw if needed ! The front more or less disintegrated in the north though our quick retreat reduced losses to only 4 small units already in bad shape. Main soviet operation was the encirclement of Brest-Litovsk in the center. Land units: 89 to 121 MPPs lost: 344 to 561 MPPs total: 18,678 to 21,452 * German historical counter in Poland and overall situation ingame. *

Pacestick (axis) vs Strategiclayabout (allies) March 1943 Strategiclayabout (axis) vs Isnogud (allies) March 1941

@ C. G. Guderian , The swap thing was added with Gold I think so if you only have the base game it won't work.