Charlie Marlow
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Posts posted by Charlie Marlow
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Of course if you look at the first large paragraph of my earlier post - there were nine Shermans. If one alone accounted for five of the seven dead Panthers then the others must have been rotten shots. Or there was stuff pinging off everywhere.
They were flank shots according to the account. I vote for rotton shots.
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... quickly outrunning their infantry support which was forced to the ground by Allied artillery fire.
This also seems to be a common theme in actions where Panthers are lost in high numbers.
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Wow wicky you sure now how to pick your data!
It may also be a stress-induced response that has caused an upsurge rather than a physical effect.
If there actually is any effect, it certainly isn't from radiation from Japan. That it is even suggested boggles the mind.
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Fits with the American experiences at Mairy, Arracourt and Krinkelt. Knife fight range and flank shots = lots of dead kitties.
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745th BN AAR is online. http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll8/id/3477/rec/2
Losses on the 28th are 2 lt tanks adn 4 mediums (at least 2 to AT guns). Enemy tank forces listed as 3 Panthers and one STuGIV.
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Just noticed that on the 28th, Breakout and Pursuit says that the weather was too poor for close air support. The Barkmann account clearly states that he was attacked by Jabos.
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The 745th unit history is on-line. The link to the relevant section is http://www.745tank.com/pages/p46.html
It was on July 28 that "A" Company, with the tank section, assault gun platoon and mortar platoon of Headquarters Company attached, met stiff enemy resistance west of Cambernon near La Chapelle as it was proceeding enroute to its objective of Monthuchon in support of the Third Battalion of the 16th Infantry. The enemy, consisting of elements the German 2nd Panzer Division, was strongly fortified on high ground, and had heavy artillery and mortar support with good observation.According to the account, at least two tanks were lost to anti-tank guns, and another to an undisclosed source. The remainder of the 15 mentioned in Breakout and Pursuit are not discussed.
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Not saying it was made up. Could have been, but who knows unless someone really digs into detailed unit AARs.
I only posted that if he was correct on the 27th, then it likely wasn't Shermans.
If it was the 28th, then it probably wasn't 3rd AD. More likely 745th Tank Battalion.
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According to the 3rd Armored Division history, Spearhead, on 28 July CCB was ordered to return to the area near Comprond to assist a regiment of the 1st Infantry Division in reducing a German strongpoint. In his book Breakout and Pursuit, Blumenson mentions that 15 American tanks were lost in this engagement which held up the advance of the 16th Infantry regiment. Seven of the tanks were mediums. The advance was held up for hours by the German defense, and according to Spearhead, CCB did not make contact with the 16th Infantry until around mid-night. Comprond is just west-southwest of Le Lorey. The date is wrong, but given the fog of war, maybe this is the actual site of Barkmann's amazing tale.
Magpie OZ's link says that Barkmann was back with his unit by the 28th. If that is the case, then it looks likely that Barkman shot up a Cav unit mis-IDed as a medium tank company.
In any event, the quote from Breakout and Pursuit suggests that it wasn't CCB's tanks that were lost on the 28th. The quote is
Although Combat Command B had found little to obstruct its advance, the 16th Infantry, attacking westward toward Monthuchon in a zone south of the St. Lô-Coutances highway, advanced only slightly before reaching a well-organized defensive line. "Any contact with the enemy?" a division staff officer asked on the telephone. "Three hundred and sixty degree contact," came the somewhat exaggerated reply.53 The regiment made no further progress during the afternoon, even though regimental attacks brought severe casualties and the loss of fifteen tanks, seven of them mediums. Tactical aircraft, which might have helped, were grounded because of cloudy weather.Shortly before nightfall General Huebner told CCB to go to the aid of the 16th Infantry. Turning to the southeast and attacking, the combat command pinched the rear of the enemy position. Caught in a trap, the German defense disintegrated. Before midnight CCB and the 16th Infantry made contact.
It looks like CCB 3AD was coming to help out the 1ID. Where the 15 tanks came from isn't clear from this passage, but it doesn't sound like CCB. Were there any attached to 1ID? Edit - that would be the 745th Tank Battalion.
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Does anyone have information on what American armor unit may have been involved in the battle? As far as I can tell, there isn't much information from the US side of things.
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Bah, I was distracted by the disturbing notion that not only will Stuka be fouling the shores of this nation (well, it is only NYC after all, not much he can do to screw that place up anymore) and Joe Shaw is attending some kind of AARP convention in the midwest, which means he is far too close to me for comfort....
that and the titanium leaves that kept saving your precious panthers from my masterful flank shots caused your skin of the teeth victory.
A loss for House Ruin? For shame. To an Ozzy no less.
On the positive side of the House of Ruin ledger, I have crushed the Cesspool lurker Elvis in a night battle where the M4 Sherman, built with love and apple pie reduced Krupp tin-foil to so much flaming wreckage.
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We walked through lower Manhattan today, I think I saw Emrys in the Meat Packer area. He was wearing tight, black leather shorts with suspenders that had rows of 4 inch chrome spikes poking out of them, bare chested but with shiny nipple covers which may have been pinned on (I didn't look too closely)
You're quite the extrovert aren't you Michael?
You met the special TSA agent for incoming Aussies.
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Maybe we will see PzIIIs in the Market Garden module. I believe there were some of them in an armor training unit sent against the paras in Arnhem.
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Boston vs. Canuckistan. Too bad both couldn't have lost.
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Should we only shoot at Stuka if he is unbuttoned?
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Dear U.S. guys,
Anyway, there is a part of the schedule that is still open and is the trip from Buffalo to Washington by car through the State of Pennsylvania.
The historic part of Philladelphia is worth a stop (Constitution Hall, etc...). Valley Forge is also close by.
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I also managed a short stop at the public displays at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds - assuming they are stil there' date=' and still ahve the awesome displays of vehicles (ie they haven't rusted away!) it's also worth the time[/quote']
The Ordinance Museum is being moved from Aberdeen to Ft. Lee Virginia (everything will be indoors). Don't know how much is still at Aberdeen.
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So, what does we learn from this?
During WWII have people shot with rifles on tanks. TCs have been killed sometimes that way. This single interview is an exemplary evidence.
But something here is obviously wrong modelled, since the own casualties exceed the enemy casualties by far. In realty this woud lead very soon to the order to never ever shoot on a tank with small arms.
So, if the infantry is modelled correct as Steve says, maybe the tanks are spotting to good?
There may well be something wrong with the modeling, but not for the reasons you state.
You say "But something here is obviously wrong modelled, since the own casualties exceed the enemy casualties by far. In realty this woud lead very soon to the order to never ever shoot on a tank with small arms."
But according to the interview account, 2 tank commanders were killed, and the tanks opened fire on the infantry company. While we don't know the German casualties, I would expect them to be more than 2 from close range fire from a tank platoon.
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Thanks for the response. Actually, I figured it was probably it was general administrative incompetence and inertia, with a dash of pig-headedness thrown in. Sort of like the US being slow in getting bigger guns into action. My remark was really directed at a poster who prefers to see evil capitalism and war profiteers at work, where bureaucratic slowness is the more likely answer.
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Er, wasn't Roosevelt still ADC? He landed D-Day pretty early in the day and is credited with inspiring the troops with his personal bravery.
Michael
He was with the 4th ID. Medal of Honor for his actions that day. Died of a heart attack shortly after.
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The hardware, the software, the controllers and the games, actually...
Careful. Don't be dissing HALO there. I spent way too many hours playing that one. Rivals only Combat Mission in time wasted.
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In what respect do you think the industrial lobby in the US were influential in maximising their production run? If I were a producer and made a profit per tank I would not wish for any thing that would reduce my production rate.
As to lessons from history - when a war starts with tanks using 40mm and 37mm with x armour and the trend is more armour and bigger guns each year you might just think that up-gunning at least would be necessary.
And the Brits fielded the Cromwell with a 75 mm gun in October of 43. Was the industrial lobby in the UK responsible for an undergunned tank that late in the war?
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A file is on the way Sirrah. I will enjoy mashing your truppen into a fine, bloody paste.
You give it up like that? Not even dinner and drinks? So, are you cheap and easy, or just easy?
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meanwhile, my challenge goes unanswered by the mentally and morally challenged.
oh the irony
you mean the "somebody play with me please? I'm really good now" challenge?
I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you that nobody responded to that with a game.
I'm am also shocked that the added "none of you smell like Peng's butt, and I know the smell of Peng's butt" part didn't help.
Panzer V against any US tank
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
A couple of solutions from a QB point-of-view.
1) House rules as you suggest.
2) Play red/red or blue/blue. CMBN permits it.
3) Play with congested maps/fog. Shermans and M10s do OK against Panthers without 1000m fields of fire.