Hetzer38

Andreas, Danke für die Blumen! I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum. (...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...) ...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive? (just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested) Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me! Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Andreas, Danke für die Blumen! I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum. (...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...) ...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive? (just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested) Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me! Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier... -> from Axis History Forum... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier... -> from Axis History Forum... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks ...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed... (...at least those that I'm aware of...) Cheers, Hetzer. sources: Ritterkreuz-Index Ritterkreuzträger Tank Killers Top Tank Killers Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces Edit: Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list... ...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots... ...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks... [ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks ...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed... (...at least those that I'm aware of...) Cheers, Hetzer. sources: Ritterkreuz-Index Ritterkreuzträger Tank Killers Top Tank Killers Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces Edit: Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list... ...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots... ...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks... [ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

quote: "It is perhaps the ultimate paradox that the very last film taken of a Luftwaffe aircraft in action for the newsreel should be of an anti-tank JU87-G on a solo sortie attacking soviet armour on the Oder in March 1945. Slow, ponderous, poorly protected, vulnerable - a sitting duck. It is unlikely that the poor soviet tankers on the recieving end of this Stuka's firing run, dying so close to final victory, would have gained any concellation(?) from the knowledge that, acoording to many experts, the plane that killed them, was no longer up to the task." Cheers, Hetzer.

quote: "It is perhaps the ultimate paradox that the very last film taken of a Luftwaffe aircraft in action for the newsreel should be of an anti-tank JU87-G on a solo sortie attacking soviet armour on the Oder in March 1945. Slow, ponderous, poorly protected, vulnerable - a sitting duck. It is unlikely that the poor soviet tankers on the recieving end of this Stuka's firing run, dying so close to final victory, would have gained any concellation(?) from the knowledge that, acoording to many experts, the plane that killed them, was no longer up to the task." Cheers, Hetzer.

I just stumbled over the short version of the video you've posted, just showing the attack on the tank (9 sec), it's here. Two shots, two hits. Can't identify the tank though...is it a russian medium tank (T34?), rolling backwards ? Or is it a lend-lease tank, maybe a Valentine VI / VII? Cheers, Hetzer.

...maybe one should also take a look at the "Kicking it like Rudel!"-clip. The "Steckrübenwurf"-movie shows some great scenes of JU87D5s(?) swooping down at very low level and aiming their bombs with great precision directly onto the hulls of (most likely) T34s. ...and just for the interest, the "Rudel's interview in Luftwaffe-Lazarett 1945"-movie...god, what a fanatic...maybe someone with better german-english translation capabilities could translate Rudel's speech? Cheers, Hetzer. P.S. And just for the fun of it, have you ever seen a Stuka rigged like this? [from "Luftwaffe im Fokus" No 2 - 2003, p 17] [ March 01, 2007, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

...maybe one should also take a look at the "Kicking it like Rudel!"-clip. The "Steckrübenwurf"-movie shows some great scenes of JU87D5s(?) swooping down at very low level and aiming their bombs with great precision directly onto the hulls of (most likely) T34s. ...and just for the interest, the "Rudel's interview in Luftwaffe-Lazarett 1945"-movie...god, what a fanatic...maybe someone with better german-english translation capabilities could translate Rudel's speech? Cheers, Hetzer. P.S. And just for the fun of it, have you ever seen a Stuka rigged like this? [from "Luftwaffe im Fokus" No 2 - 2003, p 17] [ March 01, 2007, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Jason, I agree with you, under these extreme conditions, there was no way of being sure how many russian tanks were knocked-out by german anti-tank aircraft, and everybody claimed a lot of things... Führer der Panzerjägerstaffeln (Fü.Pz.) Hptm. Bruno Meyer said about the battle on 7 July: (Hs 129 Panzerjäger! - Matin Pegg, p 146) And here's the story of 8 July: (Hs-129 Panzerjäger! - Martin Pegg, pp 146-150) There's no doubt that large parts of Meyer's story sound like a Disneyland-fairytale, but shouldn't there be at least some truth to it? Is there no doubt there wasn't another Russian unit "AUSGEBOMBT" on that day...in these fields... ? Wouldn't they have noticed the difference between 7 or 30-40 (or so, in no way they knocked out 80 like in Luftflotte 4's war diary ) knocked-out tanks? God, my fingers are aching...typos in the quotes are most likely by me... Cheers, Hetzer38. [ February 28, 2007, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

And in my opinion WW II is a bit different from Desert Strom, therefore the silly comparison. Cheers, Hetzer38.

Edit: Let's take your "most famous air strike at Kursk" - example. How could it be that an entire formation [4.(Pz.)/Sch.G 1 and I. Gruppe of Sch.G 1] are mass hallucinating dozens of knocked-out russian tanks belching smoke and fire north-east of Belgorod when in fact only 4 T-34s and 3 T-70s were knocked out? No pilot armed with "space age weaponry" has ever achieved 80 aerial victories, so it is silly to believe Manfred von Richthofen did so in world war I using "stone age weaponry". No "modern" combat pilot has achieved 352 aerial victories in any war so Erich Hartmann is just a comic book fantasy-figure. I just don't think that conclusions about Desert Storm aerial-weaponry effectivness are the ultimate proof that the Ju87-G sucked big time when being flown by highly skilled professional pilots, often with years of experience. Cheers, Hetzer38. [ February 27, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Good point! But a retreat could take several days, if not weeks. (for example: the retreat from Rschew in March 1943 took what, 20 days?) Weren't there enough examples of attacking / broken-through russian tanks which had to be defended against / counterattacked with parts of the Army retreating and other parts defending / counterattacking to make the retreat possible ? Wouldn't these defending / counterattacking units notice the difference when being helped by dedicated anti-tank aircraft? Cheers, Hetzer38.

Wasn't there someone else on board with Rudel, who could confirm if the target was knocked-out properly ? :eek: "We've got him, he's burning!" / "You missed him, you suck!" / "You give me that bottle of Cognac of yours and I confirm that you knocked-out 3 tanks." "FOUR!" "Deal." ...or whatever comment the Ju87's rear gunner made in such cases... :confused: Sorry, but isn't it quite dumb to say that none of his tank kills were ever confirmed by ground troops ? In four years of combat ? On the Eastern Front ? :confused: Cheers, Hetzer38.

Well, yea, however - why don't we discuss some other german WWII tank-busting pilot's claims... Edit I've posted an updated list at page 7 of this thread. Cheers, Hetzer38. [ March 03, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Well, yea, however - why don't we discuss some other german WWII tank-busting pilot's claims... Edit I've posted an updated list at page 7 of this thread. Cheers, Hetzer38. [ March 03, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I fear I've become a "MikeyD-Fanboy"... ...just amazing what you have done! Cheers, Hetzer38.

Hell yea, why not? How many allied pilots flew that many (2.530) combat missions ? How many were shot down / had to crash-land 30 times and lived to tell the story ? Come on, leave him his "Goldenes Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes"! BTW, Rudel didn't really sink the "Marat", but seriously crippled her... Marat 1939 Wrecked conning tower after explosion Marat after explosion Marat wreck, hull painted as concrete quay Marat now Petropavlovsk, 1944 or 45 Marat now Volkov, 1951 Cheers, Hetzer38. Edit Hmm, well, after reading BigDuke6's previous post - let's say he destroyed only three russian Panzerkorps, alright BigDuke6? [ February 25, 2007, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Hell yea, why not? How many allied pilots flew that many (2.530) combat missions ? How many were shot down / had to crash-land 30 times and lived to tell the story ? Come on, leave him his "Goldenes Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes"! BTW, Rudel didn't really sink the "Marat", but seriously crippled her... Marat 1939 Wrecked conning tower after explosion Marat after explosion Marat wreck, hull painted as concrete quay Marat now Petropavlovsk, 1944 or 45 Marat now Volkov, 1951 Cheers, Hetzer38. Edit Hmm, well, after reading BigDuke6's previous post - let's say he destroyed only three russian Panzerkorps, alright BigDuke6? [ February 25, 2007, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I think this a a better Rudel-source... Hans Ulrich Rudel ...lots of nice photos! Cheers, Hetzer38.

I think this a a better Rudel-source... Hans Ulrich Rudel ...lots of nice photos! Cheers, Hetzer38.

Vom Allerfeinsten! Love them! Love all of them! Cheers, Hetzer38.

Diamond-pattern Zimmerit... Mikey - I'm speechless. Cheers, Hetzer38