Hetzer38

Here's some more info from Martin Pegg's "Hs 129 Panzerjäger!": [...I'll summarize the rest...] * Added advantage of attacking from behind: - if own aircraft is hit during approach, you're already flying in the general direction of your own troops... * Disadvantages - target is very small when viewed from behind, pilot has to be an excellent marksman; - in order to ensure hits @ 90° @ rear sloped armor, you have to fire while being in a dive and in order to avoid crashing into target, you have to pull out at greater range than if you were attacking horizontally. (...or you press it home to point-blank range and...KABOOM!) Walter Krause, who flew with 10.(Pz)/SG9, confirmed that because of the dangers of this method of attack his Staffel performed horizontal attacks as a standard. Using the fuselage-mounted weapons to correct aim, pilots would open fire @ close range with MK 101 / MK 103 cannon, usually from ~250-50 m (~820-164 ft), banking immediatly to avoid any explosion if the target detonated immediatly after being hit. Here's a nice photo showing the white diagonal lines painted on the port glass side panel. These lines (calibrated for 10°,20° and 30° dives) aided the pilot in aligning with the horizon during diving attacks. [from: Squadron Signal No 1176 "HS 129 In Action"] And here's a self-explaining scan from Martin Pegg's "Hs 129-bible": Cheers, Hetzer.

Sorry for such a late response, but my PC was nuked by a Troyan worm (or whatever..), I desperately tried to repair the damage (for hours!) but it was fruitless... At least I have saved my most precious files before formating + reinstalling my system! (family photos, WK II potos/films, CM Mods...) Anyway, ... What's his source for that? All the best Andreas </font>

Sorry for such a late response, but my PC was nuked by a Troyan worm (or whatever..), I desperately tried to repair the damage (for hours!) but it was fruitless... At least I have saved my most precious files before formating + reinstalling my system! (family photos, WK II potos/films, CM Mods...) Anyway, ... What's his source for that? All the best Andreas </font>

Holy ****! Damn, these look superb - I love that dirty-winter look! Good luck finishing these beauties soon! (...can't be long by the look of it... Cheers, Hetzer.

And for what it's worth, here's the the point of view of "Das Reich" on the discussion. </font>

And for what it's worth, here's the the point of view of "Das Reich" on the discussion. </font>

I posted Hptm Bruno Meyer's story about the action discussed by the gentlemen at the Dupuy-forum on page 5 in the CMAK-cross-post, it ends with: (Hs-129 Panzerjäger! - Martin Pegg, p 150) However, this translation of Luftflotte 4's 'war diary' is crap. Daily combat reports of VIII. Fl. Korps (Luftflotte 4): 84 tanks destroyed (11 of them burning), 5 guns, 2 "Stalinorgeln", 2 AA-guns and about 40 motorized vehicles destroyed, 21 tanks and two "Stalinorgeln" damaged...these are not credited to the Panzerjägerstaffeln alone but to all of Luftflotte 4's / VIII Fl.Korps - groundattack-aircraft that participated on this day of combat! So, I guess the 701 Stukas + 133 remaining Schlachtflugzeuge that flew combat missions that day accounted for a good part of the knocked-out total of 84. (O.K., and let's give those 493 bombers one or two of those tanks too...;-) So the fifty-three Hs 129B-2s of the Panzerjägerstaffeln were credited with much less kills than "believed". And even if Hptm Bruno Meyer's story is just that - a story - (of which I'm not totally convinced right now, ~20-30 tank kills for ~50 Hs 129B flying 'rolling' attacks doesn't sound that unimaginable to me, and I'm not utterly convinced that Bruno Meyer's "story" can only be referring to the 26th Tank Brigade of the II Guards Tank Corps, which lost ~10 tanks that day...); that doesn't prove that Luftwaffe-kill-credits (for example for Stuka or "Tankbuster" 'aces') were seriously flawed as a general rule. Have a look at Sommerschlacht, for: Air Operations during Battle of Kursk July-August 1943 German links: * Order of battle of Lfl. 4 * Order of battle of Lfl. 6 * Daily combat reports of Lfl. 6 and VIII. Fl.Korps (compilation) * Excerpts from Kriegstagebuch Armee-Abteilung Kempf (VIII. Fl.Korps operations) * Some OKW statistics (T77R785-5513559ff) Russian links: * Order of battle of 1. wa (Western Front) * Order of battle of 15. wa (Brjansk Front) * Order of battle of 16. wa (Central Front) * Order of battle of 2. wa (Voronesh Front) * Order of battle of 5. wa (Steppes Front) * Order of battle of 17. wa (Southwest Front) * Order of battle of ADD units * Order of battle of PWO units Cheers, Hetzer. Edit: Just stumbled over a translation error by Chris Lawrence: Wrong. Fifty-three Hs 129 aircraft (Flugzeuge) are listed in the report of VIII Fliegerkorps for 8 July, not sorties (Einsätze). (...more like ~200 sorties flown by Hs 129B-2s that day IMO...Hmm, does anyone have the war diaries of * Pz.Jagd-Kdo./Sch.G. 1 * 4.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 1 * 8.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 1 * 4.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 2 * 8.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 2 * or Pz.Jagd-Staffel/J.G. 51 at hand ?... [ March 19, 2007, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I posted Hptm Bruno Meyer's story about the action discussed by the gentlemen at the Dupuy-forum on page 5 in the CMAK-cross-post, it ends with: (Hs-129 Panzerjäger! - Martin Pegg, p 150) However, this translation of Luftflotte 4's 'war diary' is crap. Daily combat reports of VIII. Fl. Korps (Luftflotte 4): 84 tanks destroyed (11 of them burning), 5 guns, 2 "Stalinorgeln", 2 AA-guns and about 40 motorized vehicles destroyed, 21 tanks and two "Stalinorgeln" damaged...these are not credited to the Panzerjägerstaffeln alone but to all of Luftflotte 4's / VIII Fl.Korps - groundattack-aircraft that participated on this day of combat! So, I guess the 701 Stukas + 133 remaining Schlachtflugzeuge that flew combat missions that day accounted for a good part of the knocked-out total of 84. (O.K., and let's give those 493 bombers one or two of those tanks too...;-) So the fifty-three Hs 129B-2s of the Panzerjägerstaffeln were credited with much less kills than "believed". And even if Hptm Bruno Meyer's story is just that - a story - (of which I'm not totally convinced right now, ~20-30 tank kills for ~50 Hs 129B flying 'rolling' attacks doesn't sound that unimaginable to me, and I'm not utterly convinced that Bruno Meyer's "story" can only be referring to the 26th Tank Brigade of the II Guards Tank Corps, which lost ~10 tanks that day...); that doesn't prove that Luftwaffe-kill-credits (for example for Stuka or "Tankbuster" 'aces') were seriously flawed as a general rule. Have a look at Sommerschlacht, for: Air Operations during Battle of Kursk July-August 1943 German links: * Order of battle of Lfl. 4 * Order of battle of Lfl. 6 * Daily combat reports of Lfl. 6 and VIII. Fl.Korps (compilation) * Excerpts from Kriegstagebuch Armee-Abteilung Kempf (VIII. Fl.Korps operations) * Some OKW statistics (T77R785-5513559ff) Russian links: * Order of battle of 1. wa (Western Front) * Order of battle of 15. wa (Brjansk Front) * Order of battle of 16. wa (Central Front) * Order of battle of 2. wa (Voronesh Front) * Order of battle of 5. wa (Steppes Front) * Order of battle of 17. wa (Southwest Front) * Order of battle of ADD units * Order of battle of PWO units Cheers, Hetzer. Edit: Just stumbled over a translation error by Chris Lawrence: Wrong. Fifty-three Hs 129 aircraft (Flugzeuge) are listed in the report of VIII Fliegerkorps for 8 July, not sorties (Einsätze). (...more like ~200 sorties flown by Hs 129B-2s that day IMO...Hmm, does anyone have the war diaries of * Pz.Jagd-Kdo./Sch.G. 1 * 4.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 1 * 8.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 1 * 4.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 2 * 8.(Pz.)/Sch.G. 2 * or Pz.Jagd-Staffel/J.G. 51 at hand ?... [ March 19, 2007, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

This image from AllAces.ru gives a good overview of the amount of damage on the Marat, and which parts were under water... ...if I understand the author of the accompanying text correctly (via Babelfish-translation), he credits Lt Ernst-Siegfried Steen, Rudel's squadron leader at that time, with the critical hit. ...'Steen' died in the attack on the "Kirov" later that day...which automatically leads to conspiracy theory A: "Hmm...'Steen' is dead, his wingman alive - let's credit 'Rudel' with the kill." ... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 14, 2007, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

This image from AllAces.ru gives a good overview of the amount of damage on the Marat, and which parts were under water... ...if I understand the author of the accompanying text correctly (via Babelfish-translation), he credits Lt Ernst-Siegfried Steen, Rudel's squadron leader at that time, with the critical hit. ...'Steen' died in the attack on the "Kirov" later that day...which automatically leads to conspiracy theory A: "Hmm...'Steen' is dead, his wingman alive - let's credit 'Rudel' with the kill." ... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 14, 2007, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I have a (tv) documentation (89 min, part 4 of 5), showing the exception to that rule, called "Mein Krieg - Amateurfilmer und ihre Aufnahmen aus dem Russlandfeldzug"...; With a 16mm-Kamera the german Panzerspähtrupp-Funkaufklärer [Panhard-Pz.Späh P 204(f)] Götz Hirt-Reger filmed the war against Russia from 1941 to 1944, mostly with Kodachrome colour-film; Hirt-Reger (74) comments the films he made 50 years ago. Additional material comes from other german and hungarian amateur-filming soldiers. Mostly non-frontline "shots" but good quality material anyway, a shame that Götz wasn't a Stuka-"rear-gunner"... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 13, 2007, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

I have a (tv) documentation (89 min, part 4 of 5), showing the exception to that rule, called "Mein Krieg - Amateurfilmer und ihre Aufnahmen aus dem Russlandfeldzug"...; With a 16mm-Kamera the german Panzerspähtrupp-Funkaufklärer [Panhard-Pz.Späh P 204(f)] Götz Hirt-Reger filmed the war against Russia from 1941 to 1944, mostly with Kodachrome colour-film; Hirt-Reger (74) comments the films he made 50 years ago. Additional material comes from other german and hungarian amateur-filming soldiers. Mostly non-frontline "shots" but good quality material anyway, a shame that Götz wasn't a Stuka-"rear-gunner"... Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 13, 2007, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Hmm, yum, yum! Looking gorgeous! Cheers, Hetzer.

Wonderful! Made me spill half of my coffee onto myself! While googling around I found some link to an expired (private) auction of a CD including the L.Dv. 4000/10 Juni 1942 Bordwaffenmunition. (L.Dv. = Luftwaffe-Dienstvorschrift = LW "duty-manual"; M.Dv =Marine-Dv; H.Dv = Heeres-Dv;...), and the Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe1942. So I googled for those, and came up with an emule-link to the Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe1942; (257 pages)... ( 1942 was a long time ago and I don't think there's a copyright-issue with downloading that file... ) Sorry, but I am obviously confused about your system of mathematical notation as well - I hope I get it straight next time! Damn it, but very good point Andreas! :mad: ...Still he recieved the following awards: Surely not for making his superiors believe that he wrecked a lot of russian equipment when in fact he diddn't ? And after all he was credited with the "sinking" of the Marat (...and she was 'only' a crippled stationary 'shore-battery' afterwards...) celebrated by his fellow pilots and superiors, celebrated by the german folk, awarded with the Knight's cross for this "achievment"...although I admit it would have been a lot better for his credibility if he had included the info about the further 'fate' of the Marat in his book... Best Regards, Hetzer. [ March 13, 2007, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Wonderful! Made me spill half of my coffee onto myself! While googling around I found some link to an expired (private) auction of a CD including the L.Dv. 4000/10 Juni 1942 Bordwaffenmunition. (L.Dv. = Luftwaffe-Dienstvorschrift = LW "duty-manual"; M.Dv =Marine-Dv; H.Dv = Heeres-Dv;...), and the Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe1942. So I googled for those, and came up with an emule-link to the Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe1942; (257 pages)... ( 1942 was a long time ago and I don't think there's a copyright-issue with downloading that file... ) Sorry, but I am obviously confused about your system of mathematical notation as well - I hope I get it straight next time! Damn it, but very good point Andreas! :mad: ...Still he recieved the following awards: Surely not for making his superiors believe that he wrecked a lot of russian equipment when in fact he diddn't ? And after all he was credited with the "sinking" of the Marat (...and she was 'only' a crippled stationary 'shore-battery' afterwards...) celebrated by his fellow pilots and superiors, celebrated by the german folk, awarded with the Knight's cross for this "achievment"...although I admit it would have been a lot better for his credibility if he had included the info about the further 'fate' of the Marat in his book... Best Regards, Hetzer. [ March 13, 2007, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Right. And still there is no definite proof that everything he claimed (...damn that we have no "verification data" of his claims, like 01/04/44 -> 4 tanks destroyed at Kuhkafka, confirmed by squadron members LT Bohlen and OG Anders / Major Neese of I.R. 0815 on the ground...) is complete rubbish based on the fact that he was such a fanatic Nazi. Cheers, Hetzer.

Right. And still there is no definite proof that everything he claimed (...damn that we have no "verification data" of his claims, like 01/04/44 -> 4 tanks destroyed at Kuhkafka, confirmed by squadron members LT Bohlen and OG Anders / Major Neese of I.R. 0815 on the ground...) is complete rubbish based on the fact that he was such a fanatic Nazi. Cheers, Hetzer.

...and, from the "Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe 1942"... vorläufige Schusstafel for 3,7cm M-Granatpatrone 18 L'Spur Schusstafel for 3,7cm H-Pzgr.Patr. L'Spur o.Zerl. Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 12, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

...and, from the "Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe 1942"... vorläufige Schusstafel for 3,7cm M-Granatpatrone 18 L'Spur Schusstafel for 3,7cm H-Pzgr.Patr. L'Spur o.Zerl. Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 12, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Yesterday, I have updated the "list" by including the numbers of Feind-Flüge (FF=combat missions) given in Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces. (...And for discussing some additional mumbers...) These thirty Stuka pilots (...well, some didn't fly the Ju87 exclusivly...) claim to have knocked-out 2049 tanks in 26656 FF... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel-2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks... Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 -996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG 77 - 1217FF - 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann-8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant-t.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel-StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-I/StG1, III/StG 1, I./StG 5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 14, 2007, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Yesterday, I have updated the "list" by including the numbers of Feind-Flüge (FF=combat missions) given in Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces. (...And for discussing some additional mumbers...) These thirty Stuka pilots (...well, some didn't fly the Ju87 exclusivly...) claim to have knocked-out 2049 tanks in 26656 FF... Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel-2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks... Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 -996FF - 117 tanks Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG 77 - 1217FF - 104 tanks Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann-8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant-t.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel-StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 - 965FF - 76 tanks Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-I/StG1, III/StG 1, I./StG 5 - +800FF - 60 tanks Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 14, 2007, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

Well, that must have been like the dying scene performed by Peewee Herrmann in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", considering that it took until 1953 for Marat to be taken out of service. Dying for 12 years... </font>

Well, that must have been like the dying scene performed by Peewee Herrmann in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", considering that it took until 1953 for Marat to be taken out of service. Dying for 12 years... </font>

You know what? I finally purchased a used (english) copy of Rudel's book "Stuka Pilot" - in the 2nd hand bookstore down the street... ...and damn it, it's a good read! I am no good at all in writing summaries, so let's "hear" Rudel's story of the attack on the Marat. ... * Between 16th and 20th September Rudel's unit flew attacks against the Baltic Fleet with 500kg bombs... ... "Twelve hundred feet high rises the cloud of the dying Marat" "The 'Marat' was literally torn in two by direct hits from our bombs." Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 10, 2007, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

You know what? I finally purchased a used (english) copy of Rudel's book "Stuka Pilot" - in the 2nd hand bookstore down the street... ...and damn it, it's a good read! I am no good at all in writing summaries, so let's "hear" Rudel's story of the attack on the Marat. ... * Between 16th and 20th September Rudel's unit flew attacks against the Baltic Fleet with 500kg bombs... ... "Twelve hundred feet high rises the cloud of the dying Marat" "The 'Marat' was literally torn in two by direct hits from our bombs." Cheers, Hetzer. [ March 10, 2007, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]