Zalgiris 1410

I still remember having a single Jagar 42 Squad produce 72 infantry casualties in a quick battle once, (back when I was a neebie) about thirty of which were achieved after it became low on ammo. It kept shooting twice or trice a minute and threw a few grenades while hiding in a light one story building with a 40 metre covered arch. If it wasn't for the snow absorbing some of the exposive it would have down better, I think. That 141 ic/kills for that Roumanian Cav squad is amazing and bloody beautiful too since I like going the Roumanians. However I've never had an Infantry squad break 100 kills to my knowledge though, HMG teams for sure of course but I'll look out for a case of it. It's a challenge! All the same I like to have a number of squads get 30 to 45 kills and then I know that I've defended well rather than just one alone fighting for its existance...

O.K. I'm not completely up to speed with all the debate about Kursk etc. However AIUI it was Hoth's assessment that will count here not Munstein's since he based his own appreciation on the situation on the advice of Hoth during this period, it's not for nothing that he has a reputation for being lazy and relying upon his subordinates and staff etc. I think that basically Hoth killed his earlier Fredericus II planning after their first meeting prior to this battle some time after the recapture of Beligorod. On the subject of Infantry men, I am mainly refering to the large number of replacements for the Infantry type of units involved while OTOH there were plenty of complaints especially by senior German Officers and Stabsters in AGS about there being a lack of relieving Infantry Divisions availiable especially for both the III & XLVIII Panzer Korps on the flanks of the Schwerpunkt, the II SS Korps.

Hmmm, I am particularly partial to on board mortars, 60-81/82mm types, though I would love 4.2 inch if CM had them on the board. I have read a fair few times of accounts of British or Commonwealth troops on the one hand complaining that their 3" mortars were out ranged by German and even Italian medium mortars which is not how it is in CMAK of course and on the other is that when they captured German 81mm mortar rounds they had to borrow from the Americans their 81mm mortars to fire them because the rounds did not fit in their own 3" medium mortars at all.

While I'm not entirely familiar with Toppel I did say early May, not mid-May as I think (suspect only really) such discussions / POV are based, since they mean a prepared assault. I mean a hasty mobile attack immediately just as soon as the Spring thaw set in enough to allow for the Germans to have continued from the capture of Beligorod with a jump from the mud. AIUI the wheather and ground conditions started to seem right for or from about the 4th of May and definately fine enough by the 10th of May for this to have allowed for this to have taken place if they had of decided to do so. Well enough by this time Hoth had convinced Munstein the Operation Federicus II was not a good idea and the a Battle for and the destruction of the Kursk Salient was the decisive thing to do in order to stablize the Eastern Front enough to allow for the Germans to gain for themselves the time to rebuild a strategic reserve to deal with either the West or for another expected Red Winter offensive or both etc. Also I have a good assesment of the logistics situation and evaluation for the interviening two month period that actually demonstrates that the Russians gain more through the waiting period than the Germans did both in total of course and relatively speaking also. And then there was the training and the defensive works the the Russians were able to carry out for two months which had exponential effects for them and the course of the Battle in July-August 43. The Russians needed the training more than the Germans did while the defensive works required the Germans to spend time on training for the full scale assault upon them. Apparently this was best and possibly only acchieved by the Raus Korps (later renamed the XI Korps to replace the orrigional lost at Stalingrad) for the whole Battle. Also the Germans still didn't manage to consentrate enough Infantry men and Divisions for the attack in July either, which partly explains why the attack from the South ended up being made with 3 Panzer Korps abreast which didn't help them either because they were not able to exploit developments while also being forced to batter away at the fortified defences etc. This kind of attack with Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisions in the van might have worked from a standing start in very early May OTOH IMHO, may be, at least better against the lesser defensive and probably still sludgy field works of the Russians! The other thing to bear in mind is that the collapse of their own Oriel Salient possibly would not also have taken place simultaniously with the climax of the Battle of Kursk either... While I'm no expert, any thoughts anyone on my arguement? [ November 07, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

While 5 SS has long been seen as a 'clean' unit, there is now apparently evidence that it was involved in mass-murder of Jews early during Barbarossa, during July 41 near L'vov IIRC. All the best Andreas </font>

You right Jason, I was being a little bit lazy, but since I don't have Glantz's book on Kursk I'll have to go looking for it. Actually I don't think I've ever seen a copy but anyway I'll eventually find a copy someday, hopefully soon. I checked my own collection of Kursk related material but alas the best I've got is 2D black and white without terrain levels or features though it helped a bit. Still I need a good map though, I'm gonna have to get off my asre I guess! Anyone got an analysis on JasonC's solution or one of their own out there, please post here, thanks. The best that I can do is to say that I believe that the Germans should have launched the attack on the Kursk Salient back in early May as orrigionally intended, jumping into it before the Russians built up and re-inforced their defences. This is more of an Operative-Strategic formulation but anyway I'm interested in what the CMers think on this also. :confused:

Dook the Italian 27th 'Brescia' Division was an Infantry Division, not wholely motorized, since it only had enough 'spare' organic lorry capacity to provide for itself to lift only 6 of its Infantry Companies. Also Dook at a quick glance I don't know about an 'Indian 3rd Motorized Brigade' at all, OTOH the first Indian formation that I am aware of in this period is the 11th Indian Brigade, but that is in Operation Brevity in June 1940 on the Sollum front. The only '3rd' Brigade that I think you might be confusing this with is the 3rd Armoured Brigade which was part of the 2nd British Armoured Division. I don't have exact numbers of men kind of totals for the OOBs for this two month period but I do have formation OOBs for both the Axis & Allies which includes some detailed arrival dates and actual numbers of tanks, including not only their type but also their serial numbers to be sure! :cool: I have this in a book called "Tank Combat in North Africa, the Opening Rounds; Operations Sonnenblume, Brevity, Skorpion and Battleaxe; February 1941 - June 1941.", by Thomas L. Jentz. Obviously this is the first in a series but I neglected to follow up and buy the rest of his books because at the time it was too detailed and I didn't understand it and because I figured that I had enough info on the rest of the North African Campaigne. CMx1 helped me to understand this book and now I know how wrong I was about declining to get the rest of the series, but alas anyway... For the 31st of March in the forward areas OOB: Panzer totals: 20 PzIV, 71 PzIII, 46 PzII, 29 PzI, 27 PzJgI, 7 PzBef, plus 24 SPW (Arm.Cars) & 20 Sd.Kfz251s 5th Leichte (later 21st Panzer) Division; Panzer Regiment 5 Stabs und Nachr (Signals) Zug: 3 Pz Bef/radio, 1 PzIII, 3 PzII le.Pz.Zug: 3 PzII, 5 PzI le.Pz.Zug: 1 PzII, 4 PzI I.Abteilung Stabs Kompanie: 2 Pz Bef/radio, 2 PzIII, 1 PzI le.Pz.Zug: 5 PzII le.Pz.Zug: 1 PzII, 4 PzI 1st le.Kompanie: 17 PzIII, 5 PzII 2nd le.Kompanie: 16 PzIII, 5 PzII 4th me.Kompanie: 10 PzIV, 3 PzII, 2 PzI II.Abteilung Stabs Kompanie: 2 Pz Bef/radio, 2 PzIII le.Pz.Zug: 5 PzII le.Pz.Zug: 1 PzII, 7 PzI 5th le.Kompanie: 16 PzIII, 5 PzII 6th le.Kompanie: 17 PzIII, 5 PzII 8th me.Kompanie: 10 PzIV, 3 PzII, 2 PzI Regiment(al)-Stabs z.b.V. 200 -Mot.M.G.Bataillon 2: 10 me.SPW (Sd.Kfz.251) 1st Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 2nd Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 3rd Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 4th s.Kompanie: 6 s.Gr.W.(81mm Mtr), 6 37mm PAK, 2 le.M.G. 5th Pi.Kompanie: 9 le.M.G. 6th Pi.Kompanie: 9 le.M.G. -Mot.M.G.Bataillon 8: 10 me.SPW (Sd.Kfz.251) 1st Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 2nd Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 3rd Kompanie: 12 s.M.G., 3 Pz.B., 3 le.Gr.W. (50mm Mtr) 4th Pz.Jag.Kompanie: 9 37mm PAK, 3 le.M.G. 5th s.Kompanie: 6 s.Gr.W.(81mm Mtr), 6 37mm PAK, 2 le.M.G. Pionier Zug: 3 le.M.G. Aufklaerung Abteilung 3 (Reconnaissance) Stabs und Nachr.Zug: 3 le.M.G. Pz.Spar.Wgn.Schwadron: 6 s.PSW, 18 le.PSW (Armoured Car) Kradschtzn.(M.C.)Schwdrn: 18 le.MG, 2 s.MG, 3 le.Gr.W. schwr.Schwdrn: 3 75mm le.IG, 3 37mm PAK, 2 le.MG Panzer Jaeger Abteilung (mot.) 39 1st Kompanie: 3 50mm PAK, 8 37mm PAK, 6 le.MG 2nd Kompanie: 3 50mm PAK, 8 37mm PAK, 6 le.MG 3rd Kompanie: 3 50mm PAK, 8 37mm PAK, 6 le.MG Panzer Jaeger Abteilung (Sfl.) 605 Stabs und Nachr.Zug: 1 PzI 1st Kompanie: 1 PzI, 9 47mm PAK Sfl. 2nd Kompanie: 1 PzI, 9 47mm PAK Sfl. 3rd Kompanie: 1 PzI, 9 47mm PAK Sfl. I.Abteilung/Artillerie Regiment (mot.) 75 1st Batterie: 4 105mm le.FH, 2 le.MG 2nd Batterie: 4 105mm le.FH, 2 le.MG 3rd Batterie: 4 105mm le.FH, 2 le.MG leichte Flak Bataillon (Sfl.) 606 1st Kompanie: 12 20mm le.Flak Sfl. 3rd Kompanie: 12 20mm le.Flak Sfl. I.Abteilung/Flak Regiment (mot.) 33 1st Batterie: 4 88mm Flak 2nd Batterie: 4 88mm Flak 3rd Batterie: 4 88mm Flak 4th Batterie: 8 20mm le.Flak 5th Batterie: 8 20mm le.Flak Italian 132o divisione carazzato 'Ariete' 32o reggimento carrista I btg. carri L; 27 carri L, 12 carri L lf (tankettes) II btg. carri L; 27 carri L, 12 carri L lf (tankettes) III btg. carri L; 27 carri L, 12 carri L lf (tankettes) VII btg. carri M; 46 carri M13/40 batteria: 10 c.c.(ATG)37/45 8o reggimento bersaglieri 132o cp. cannoni: 8 c.c.(ATG)47/32 142o cp. cannoni: 8 c.c.(ATG)47/32 III btg motociclisti 1a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 2a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 3a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 V btg bersaglieri 1a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 2a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 XII btg bersaglieri 1a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 2a cp. : 9 lMG, 3 mMG, 3 c.c.(ATG)37/45 132o reggimento artiglieria I gruppo: 12 cannoni 75mm/L27 II gruppo: 12 cannoni 75mm/l27 3x batteria c.a.(AAG): 24 c.a. 20mm Attatched I gruppo/24o regmt.art. : 12 cannoni 105mm/L28 72a cp. cannoni: 8 c.c. 47mm/L32 I btg. 39o regmt.fan : ??? Italian 27o divisione fanteria "Brescia"* 2x btg./19o regmt fanteria 'Brescia' 2x btg./20o regmt fanteria 'Brescia' 1x an 81mm medium motar cp. : ? 1x an Infantry Gun cp. : ? 65mm/17 4x batteria c.c. : 32 c.c.47mm/L32s, 12 c.c.37mm/45 1o reggimento artiglieria celere: 16 75mm/27, 16 c.a.(AA) 20mm XV gruppo/16o reggimento artiglieria: 12 105mm/28 * The third btg of each fanteria reggimento and supporting elements was still back in Tripoli. THE ALLIES 2nd Armoured Division 3rd Armoured Brgade (HQ): 3 Mk.VI Light Tanks 3rd King's Own Hussars : 26 Mk.VI Lt Tanks, 12 M13/40s 5th Btln Royal Tank Rgt: 25 Mk IVA Cruser Tanks 6th Btln Royal Tank Rgt: 36 M13/40s at Beda Fomm 2nd Armoured Division Support Group 1st Btln. Tower Hamlet Rifles Motor Btln. 1st Coy. Free French Motor Btln. 104 Royal Horse Artillery 16th Australian AT Coy. J Battery 3rd Royal Horse Artillery 1st Kings Dragoon Guards (An Armoured Car Btln IIRC) 9th Australian Division (Infantry) 20th Australian Infantry Brigade 2/13th Btln. 2/15th Btln. 2/17th Btln. 20th Australian AT Coy. 24th Australian Infantry Brigade 2/28th Btln. 2/43rd Btln. 24th Australian AT Coy. 20th Australian Infantry Brigade 2/23rd Btln. -IIRC, the last Aust Btln still in Tobruk til siege end in Dec 41! 2/24th Btln. 2/48th Btln. 26th Australian AT Coy. 1st Royal Northumberland Fusiliers M.G. Btln. 51 Feild Regiment Royal Artillery (British) 2/1st Australian Pioneer Btln.** ** The 2/# means the second rising and refers to the Second World War Australian Imperial Forces (all volunteers) as aposed to the first A.I.F. in WWI of course. An absolutely stupid bloody thing to have to put up with if you ask me but anyway that's all it means in case you're confused. Hope that'll all help ya Dook, regards, Saul. [ November 06, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

31, and a CMBB gamer for over two years CMAK for one!

JasonC or anyone else kind enough, could you post a linky to a good map of the relevent area of the Battle of Kursk for the 12th for me to follow precisely what JasonC has descibed as his solution, or better yet JasonC could you post an actual map to show what you are saying. Sorry if this sounds a bit much, but I'm not demanding it of you to be sure. OTOH, while and because I'm no expert I second the question about the capapbilities of the Red Army's command and communications techniques to function up to the required level for such actions as JasonC would like to see it perform circa July 1943. Wasn't it Rotmistrov's 5th Guards Tank Army that also charged into the waiting guns of Raus's XI Korps around Kharkov for 3 days during mid August, that is about a month later and again sufferred staggerring tank losses to the extent that it was written off as an armoured fighting formation until another refitting. Seems to me that he hadn't learn't his leason yet about what it was that he had done so wrong tactically at Prokharovka. By repeating such bad handling after the earlier result, that to me is worse than having made the mistake in the first place IMHO.

To be fair about Johnny the SS Dutchman, while I'm assuming that he served in the 'Westland' Regiment of the 5th SS 'Wiking' Pz/Pz Gren Div, I don't think that it murdered anyone as part of the holicaust or for Liebensraum AFAIK. It spent most of its time in the front line, or refitting or reforming to rush back immidiately into it and consequently spent little if any time in the rear zone. I'm not aware of this formation having perpertrated any massacres of Soviet civilians, Jews, Gypsies or Commissars nor of conducting any 'capture no prisioners' episodes either during all the time it served on the Eastern Front. Also I don't think that the Germans (Nazis) were all that keen on employing non-German Western & Northern Europeans for 'Special Perpose' tasks IMO and do not allow so. An interesting thing that I would like to point out is that the first contingent of Dutch volenteers for the Waffen-SS were vertually press-ganged into the fighting formation by Eicke IIRC, at least according to Rupert Butler in his book on the 'Totenkopf' Division. BTW Jason C my problem is with the Einsatzgruppen who shot some of my Jewish relatives by marrage and their wives for good meassure as well the bastards! [ November 06, 2005, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

Thanks you Philippe for explaining about this in the direction I was implying. I'm not really actually arguing that Islam is polytheistic Andrew H. OTOH of course I find these tantalizing contraditions and curiousities intreging enough to entertain my interest in & enjoy poking holes in Islam's supposed absolute mono-theism. Both in order to sure up and soothe my atheism I find this fun to do and I'm glad to encounter all this polyglotism of mono-Islamism, I'm particularly partial to all the influence of dualistic Zoroastrianism in Shi'iaism and in the other major monotheistic religions from the Near East! O'h BTW did you know that Mithras was supposedly crucified to death on what date, the 25th of December or summer solstice or then abouts so would you have guessed by Jove!

I second that, I've read at least one first person account of a German Heavy Machine Gun Platoon ordered to attack as normal Infantry riflemen, and get slaughtered in the process of returning to their MG positions. While this is not an example of an ATG crew doing the same I suggest the reader extrapolate from it thank you!

Renaud the 22 Panzer Division only ever fought along side German and Rumanian troops, never near any Honved Divisions. I second JasonC, the 22 PzD still only had Pz IIFs, Pz-38(t)s and PzIVFs (short barrelled referred to as Stummels) in terms of tanks while it constituted part of the XLVIII Panzer Korps supporting the Rumanian 3rd Army to the North-west of Stalingrad. However I have an autobiographical book called 'Through Hell for Hitler', by Henry Metelmann a driver of a Marder III, packing a Russian 76.2mm gun, who's unit was in the Crimea around this time. He is not particularly clear as to wheither this is a battalion or a company, although it certainly seems to have orrigionally been something independent. He is no expert and I believe he confuses either a knocked out 47mm gun armed PzJ I or possibly the hull of a decapitated Pz-38(t) from amoung the debris of an early 1941 battle as he passes by it in the Ukraine. Even after inspecting it he explains that it was not very comforting to see this husk that probably cost the lives of all its crew that was the same Panzer that he was a crew member of. These are fair sentiments to have except that I'm pretty sure that his Marder III is amoung the first batch ever sent East, but anyway. At some point his PanzerJaegar unit became a formal part of the 22nd Panzer Division in the Crimea, although I'm not precisely sure when this was. That said, it mostly seems to have performed anti-partisan duties and definately wasn't involved in the earlier March encounter by the 22nd PzD, although it appears to have become an asset of it by then as far as I can work out. Then again I could be mistaken and this addition to the 22nd PzD could have occurred with regards to include this Marder III equipt PanzerJaegar unit in lieu of actual Panzer replacements. It took part with the 22nd PzD during the Battle for the Kerch Peninsular in early May 1941 and stayed with the 22nd PzD when it arrived in front of the Don bend and joined the 6th Army in driving towards Stalingrad. It always stayed to the West of the Don River and ended up behind the 3rd Rumanian Army before the 19th of November. It became a part of Armee-Abteilung 'Hollidt', along with the remains of the 27th PzD and other Divisions and scratch units to cover the large gap and to replace the disintegreted Rumanian 3rd Army and then also the Italian 8th Army. Both of these Panzer Divisions were disintegreted themselves during the Winter of 1942-43. One thing to understand about them is that one of the Infantry Regiments of the 22nd PzD had been transferred to the 27th PzD in order to make up its Infantry component, which means that they both only had one each going into that Winter of their demise. Neither of these two Panzer Divisions were ever reconstituted in the manner of those that were destroyed in the Stalingrad Kessel during the same period and in the same area essentially. Metelmann provides an example of what seems to have happenned to those members of such Divisions in this area at the time and afterwards. He became a straggler behind Russian lines after the destruction of the anti-tank gun that he and his Panzerless crew had manned which was detatched in support of Rumanian frontline troops on the 19th of November 1941. The rest of his crew were killed when the ATG was taken out by what he describes as a 'mass' of Russian tanks. He evaded the Russians and meet another German staggler on the way to join up with an ad hoc German group before the end of November and served with it through out 1943-44 amid changes in its size and commanders. He is not great on much of the details, but at least this indecates just what happenned to the remnants of such defunct Divisions and units.

Renaud the 22 Panzer Division only ever fought along side German and Rumanian troops, never near any Honved Divisions. I second JasonC, the 22 PzD still only had Pz IIFs, Pz-38(t)s and PzIVFs (short barrelled referred to as Stummels) in terms of tanks while it constituted part of the XLVIII Panzer Korps supporting the Rumanian 3rd Army to the North-west of Stalingrad. However I have an autobiographical book called 'Through Hell for Hitler', by Henry Metelmann a driver of a Marder III, packing a Russian 76.2mm gun, who's unit was in the Crimea around this time. He is not particularly clear as to wheither this is a battalion or a company, although it certainly seems to have orrigionally been something independent. He is no expert and I believe he confuses either a knocked out 47mm gun armed PzJ I or possibly the hull of a decapitated Pz-38(t) from amoung the debris of an early 1941 battle as he passes by it in the Ukraine. Even after inspecting it he explains that it was not very comforting to see this husk that probably cost the lives of all its crew that was the same Panzer that he was a crew member of. These are fair sentiments to have except that I'm pretty sure that his Marder III is amoung the first batch ever sent East, but anyway. At some point his PanzerJaegar unit became a formal part of the 22nd Panzer Division in the Crimea, although I'm not precisely sure when this was. That said, it mostly seems to have performed anti-partisan duties and definately wasn't involved in the earlier March encounter by the 22nd PzD, although it appears to have become an asset of it by then as far as I can work out. Then again I could be mistaken and this addition to the 22nd PzD could have occurred with regards to include this Marder III equipt PanzerJaegar unit in lieu of actual Panzer replacements. It took part with the 22nd PzD during the Battle for the Kerch Peninsular in early May 1941 and stayed with the 22nd PzD when it arrived in front of the Don bend and joined the 6th Army in driving towards Stalingrad. It always stayed to the West of the Don River and ended up behind the 3rd Rumanian Army before the 19th of November. It became a part of Armee-Abteilung 'Hollidt', along with the remains of the 27th PzD and other Divisions and scratch units to cover the large gap and to replace the disintegreted Rumanian 3rd Army and then also the Italian 8th Army. Both of these Panzer Divisions were disintegreted themselves during the Winter of 1942-43. One thing to understand about them is that one of the Infantry Regiments of the 22nd PzD had been transferred to the 27th PzD in order to make up its Infantry component, which means that they both only had one each going into that Winter of their demise. Neither of these two Panzer Divisions were ever reconstituted in the manner of those that were destroyed in the Stalingrad Kessel during the same period and in the same area essentially. Metelmann provides an example of what seems to have happenned to those members of such Divisions in this area at the time and afterwards. He became a straggler behind Russian lines after the destruction of the anti-tank gun that he and his Panzerless crew had manned which was detatched in support of Rumanian frontline troops on the 19th of November 1941. The rest of his crew were killed when the ATG was taken out by what he describes as a 'mass' of Russian tanks. He evaded the Russians and meet another German staggler on the way to join up with an ad hoc German group before the end of November and served with it through out 1943-44 amid changes in its size and commanders. He is not great on much of the details, but at least this indecates just what happenned to the remnants of such defunct Divisions and units.

Was I forced to suffer attending Catholic schooling and did I have to perform unpleasent tasting activities as an Ultar Boy or not! It was a pain in the neck the whole time for sure, but I just never swallowed anything that was gonna buggar me beyond belief. (Nor did I have to become a catomite either, thankfully.) I did say that I am atheistically intolerant of all religious prophets and you bet'ya that definately includes bloody Christianity, especially given for what it has become (as we know it) it was largely created imparticular by this weird misfortunate persecutor of early Jesus followers - Saul of Tarsus. What I find particular gnawing is that I carry the very same first given name. Although, at least I can comfort myself with the fact that he must have killed a fair few before he changed his name to Paul and started to write of their 'Acts' and send a few letters to them instead. Regards, Saul! [ October 18, 2005, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

Islam began and was always strictly monotheistic orrigionally from the very first or so you might think but...why did the Great Prophet's 'Muhammadins' exactly just need to go on that very first Jihad to take control of Medina in 630? AIUI Muhammed started to promulgate his prophetic revelation in the Qur'an while in Mecca from about 610, however the Meccan authorities or notables or somefink were opposed (religiously amoung other reasons of State) to him and it became neccessary to leave with his small band of dedicated follows after 12 years, hence the Hijra to Medina in 622. What was in Mecca that was so important and why didn't Medina just do as the Holist of places. The Kaaba, the most important religious traditional (pagan) object of devotion in that whole region which Islam has adopted and continues with as its most significant means of expressing devout devotion, with the hajj pilgrimage. The actual act of walking 7 times around the Kaaba during the Hajj is also more than likely an adoption of the orrigional pagan tradition, that is it was pre-Islamic and occurring at the sametime while Muhammed was residing in Mecca and beginning to author the Qur'an! These pagan traditional attributes incorporated into Islam by Muhammed (I'm assuming) have been admitted or conceed to in some circles of serious Islamic academia even by respectable (in one case that I'm aware of female) Arab Muslims to be sure. Also AIUI Muhammed tried to co-exist in Mecca for a fair while before the Hijra and still tried to get the Meccans to accept him and his followers back in afterwards before the Jihad that succeeded in capturing Mecca two years before the death of Great Prophet. I don't know who or what it was that the Meccans were praying to or making obligatory religious observances in their pagan activities, but I'm just a suspicious little atheist and these beginnings just slightly reek to me! :eek: I'm not going to describe what this budding little atheist's view is of the devine inspiration of all religious prophets, peace be upon them... BTW what does one call it when someone just makes something completely up and puts it down in writing -fiction according to Dewey eh? Or else purhaps worse - lying!

I have no need to worry about having caused myself some bad karma then, cool Avatar13. :cool: Enjoy your CMAK Samsara! BTW I suspect that your moniker means Incarnate#13, how's that? :eek: It wasn't so much that I had to do any digging, it was more a case of me making a totally long streatched link of some astranged kind because of my eclectic interest in curiosities and a habit of making associations between them. Weird hey? :confused: BTW when we did some comparative studies as part of our compulsory religion classes (I went to a Catholic High School - they're hell bent for Liedenhosen on that subject) we made a little pun on Bhagavadgita - Bugger-the-guitar. Hehe, I had a few mates in grundgy bands and I think that it was tossed around as an idea for a band name. This was just before Nirvana...they were beaten to a comercial break through Hinduistic band name...what a shame! [ October 17, 2005, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

That's what I was referring to somewhat disparagingly in this thread, not that I know anything about nunation in Arabic to be sure! definate singular or one God (who) is greater or greatest in a comparative sense to something else or in relation to other Gods, maybe. Now what's the real historical importance to be made of the evident eptimological distiction between the meaning of 'servert of just god', and 'servent of the (one) God'? Which came first just god or The (one) God?

Magyar is right in saying that there is not a specific order for ordering ATG guns and Infantry types to Shoot & Scoot but that there are canny techniques that you can try to develop to mimick such an order. With guns, because of their full minute or mre set up delays, it is best to just keep them hiden or to have giving them a short covered ark and when the enemy armour gets close enough target them to fire for the next turn. To approximate the Scoot part you just need to give the gun a move / withdrawl order and use the pause option plus feature to delay its manoeuvre from its position until after you expect it to have rotated to target and hopefully fired once. Hard to do, but theoretically possible! With AT/Infantry types, by which I assume that you are referring to Panzerscheck and Bazooka teams, you can at least give them a movement forwards or into a firing position before you try something similar to what you might try to do with guns. You need to know your timings in order to fully replicate AT/infantry Shoot & Scoot this way, so it is perhaps best to try to manage it with the little rocketeers in situ just as like for the guns above. If you need to move them forwards you'll just have to do that, but I suggest that you try to advance them into terrain with cover such as woods, rough, or purhaps best rubble when wet and into creaters or trenches in the open. If the team is fired upon they may go pinned and the enemy ought to lose their bead line to it as it falls out of enemy sights while it takes cover. (That is if you are lucky and the team doesn't panick or die!) [ October 17, 2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

Hehe, BTW the Rat is not a lot of things and one of those things is not being Pope Pius XII, now their was a real Nazi collaborator if ever there was one! {Hot tip for Fleet Street.) (I thought the Stassi was shut down and completely disbanded along with the rest of the DDR, or did the DFR started to re-instate it in order to soak up some Ostie unemployment!) [ October 17, 2005, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

Sorry Avatar13, I appologise for appearing to put you on the spot about the realism factor. Thanks for explaining what you meant exactly (1 minute WEGO system turns & paused planning etc) and I am completely with you on this, but then again after all it is a PC simulation wargame. I was really just trying to help sell you on the game by assuring you that, as I expect judging by your eloquence, you will learn to solve your CM playing problems and avoid such frustrations after gaining experience, though may be from some mistakes! I did this 'cos you are only playing the demo. It is both a complicated simulation wargame which deals with things as realistically as it does which is difficult to master as well. I also but very sincerely apologise for mistaking you for a Germanophile going by nothing more than your board callsign name Avatar13. Sorry I was trying to make sense of it. I thought that it was somekind of ironic dig at Aryan mysticism or the Thule Society occultism etc. Why else would a wargamer employ such a Hinduistic term? (OK may be it really really was just me that got the punch line!)

Michael Emrys I'm referring to the fact that the penetrating performance of the PAK 38's velocity wasn't improved by lengthening the barrel of the German's 50mm L/60 to L/70 or L/80, that is from 3 metres to up to 3.5m to 4m or something realistic. The Russians managed to keep their light 45mm ATGs viable to a degree to the end of the war by extending the barrel length of the late war models. I wasn't complaining that the German's had bet on the wrong horse between 50mm or 57mm calibre for their medium ATG, however OTOH broaching the subject...

Thanks Abbott, wow looks like technotrooper stuff to me! :eek:

You might be wrong to the degree that you imply that you think CM "may not be "realistic" but [that] this is a game for bloody sake! I want to be entertained, not frustrated." The fun factor goes up as you learn from your CM playing knowldge and understand and solve the frustration of the realisticallity of CM, IME. It is certainly much more entertaining than any click feast, I'm with you on that score Avartar13. It's because of the WEGO system. (I suspect that you are a Germanophile given your board name, no?)

It works the same way and i did so in my example but I just chose to show the on board mortar because it was more 'standing alone' there. If Avatar13 has further problems I can upload the screenshot of the artillery spotter team using the HQ to spot for its 'blind' indirect fire at the same area! Edit: I meant to thank you in agreement stoat: when Zalgiris 1410 says "2 guys" he means the two men of the spotter team [ October 16, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]