Desaix

From a mail Jersey John sent me: "Looked over your scenario. One thing that strikes me is the extremely high USSR %, something like 68% !! I've never seen it start that high and am wondering what the purpose is? The fleets look awfully strong, with Germany having a lot of U-boats, including one in the Mediterranean. Naturally, the Germans and Italians did routinely get subs past Gibraltar going both east and west, and in the game it's impossible, so if you want U-boats in the Med, you've pretty much got to place them there at the start, as you have." Yes for the sub simulation I had to twist a lot of things as the game is realy not good at simulating sub war... For Russian readiness it is to better reflect Russian geopolitic behaviors. Since the mid XVIII century Russia is a major player in European geopoltic and has always commited to prevent any country domination in Europe and to have its piece of the cake when countries or empires are taken a part... Germany was able to expend to some extend because of its agreement (economical and politic) with Russia... As Germany was invading countries, Russia received part of Poland, Baltes states and some part of Romania and industrial and military supply. Russia even could have taken Finland but this didn't work... So in the game we have again some hard coded compensations for Russia that match the historical pattern. These are to reflect LC, DK, Poland, France, Norway and Greece (not realy for this last one in fact...). Russia would have never let Germany grow to much without having its share. So as we can not give Russia some more territories or other things as German take some more countries, I have set the readiness of Russia to reflect an intervention for any further dow over 3 minors (more or less depends on which ones)... Germany has some choice on which 3/4 ones to take, Russia will have the hard coded compensations for them but after this, Axis will have to deal with Russia directly for further territorial growth... Desaix

Sub hunt and France defence prepared. Waiting for the panzers now...

Poland and LC surrender on turn 2. Denamrk corps heroicaly defends the bridge to Copenhagen, will surrender next turn. The Canadian navy was spoted and sunk by Uboats not far from Canadian shore.

So here we go... We'll play mirror games with the 3H mod so I can learn from Terif and test the mod... We start it in pbem and may do some part on TCP... Options are: - No Free French - Minor historical House rules: no land on dow and no AA. We used 1/1/2/10 (Fr/Uk/US/USSR) bid system and used a 100 bid. That makes 100 mpps UK, 100 France, 200 USA, 3000 Russia (as I set a base of 2000 to Russia in the mod now). Turn 1 No much, invasion of Poland going on, no Breakthrough. (In this mod, Poland may fall in turn 1 with a breakthrough and some German commitement) Dow on Danemark, naval bombing only. Desaix

Very nice game and AAR... Thanks for posting it. Desaix

Hello, So 3H mod goes version 3... Basicly it now covers all the things I wanted to cover... Further versions will probably be only tune-up and corrections due to more games played... Not much changes this time but it makes a big impact to the game. Here they are : - Couple of minor corrections on units (placement, strength, experience) - All nations start with 1 more tech level in bombers to make them more efficient to use... - 1/1/2/10 (France,UK, USA, USSR) bid system is recommanded (to be tested). USSR ------------------- USSR starts at 68% of war readiness. Tuned-up after some test games... USSR starts with 1000 extra MPPs at mobilization. Bid MPP points are added to this base. MINORS ------------------- IRELAND (no change here) Ireland starts as Allies member. It reflects the general Commonwealth economic support to England and prevents the unhistorical plunder of Ireland by Britain. SWEDEN Stays neutral even if it had economic links with Germany, it was not giving military support and access. IRAQ Represents the Irak and Iran oil ressources and the Middle east supply link to Russia. Stays neutral even if it had economic links with England. It was not giving military support and access. Britain and US had to attack them to secure these supplies and military access to Russia. CANADA Starts already in war, so port supply and spoting can be used rigth away. Troops start not completly mobilized. GREECE Starts as Allies for more geopolitic realisme. Troops are not fully mobilized. First reason is Italy wanted some territorial expensions and Mussolini was jealous of the German success. Greece is the primary and historical Italian expension field, just like Poland is for Germany. Second reason is that the Axis (both Italy and Germany) deployed time, ressources and troops to geopoliticaly and military secure the Balkan. Bulgaria joined the Axis to prevent an imminent German invasion and because of the possible gain of territory. In Romania after a territorial partition ordered by Germany in Sept 1940, Ion Antonescu came to command and joined Axis with the support of German troops stationed in the country so Germany was able to military secure the Romanian oilfields from any further Russian ambitions. As Greece rejected Italian submission "offer", Italian invasion, and later German one, showed Axis will and commitement. It made clear by military actions Axis plans in the Balkan. In SC results of this diplomacy and military actions are hard coded in the game: Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria will turn to Axis without Axis doing anything. Historicaly, Italy and Germany had to send troops and to take actions in this area to have these results. So despite initial historical pro Axis Greek position, Greece starts as Allies as a natural expension area for Italy and to have Axis being more commited in the Balakan for the benefits that will be gained here. As side effects, it will bring a more realistic defence of Greece as armies will be already entrenched. It also gives a strategic oportunity for England to commit to defend Greece (as they historicaly did in a limited way) and maybe to hold it until the Yugoslavian coup to destabilized a bite the area. Thats it... I will send tomorrow the this last version of the mod to the people that have requested the mod so far... Desaix PS: Sorry for typos, getting late...

About graphic mods, I dont know, I haven't found any that doesnt bug... If you find some nice ones, I would be interested to... About scenario, I developed one called 3H, if you want to give it a try... It is mainly for Human vs Human but it gives some decent games against the computer... Send me a mail if you want the file... You can see details at : 3H scenario - version 2.1 - Desaix [ December 22, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

Some last changes have been made to version 2.1 after some more tests, especialy on Italian gambit startegy : ITALY ------------------- Italy starts with 120 MPP, so it can upgrade its battleships. Italy starts with the following tech: Sonar 1 GLR 1 That's it... I have sent the file to people that asked for it (there is a typo in the doc file I sent, it says Sub 1 but it is realy Sonar 1 in the scenario)... I hope to play this mod against some of you soon .... Desaix

So, after some tests and more historical research here is a new version 2.1 of the 3H scenario... Here are the major changes : FRANCE ------------------- French fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Richelieu (6/0), Bretagne (9/1), Provence(9/1), Lorraine(9/1). Cruisers: Dunkerque (10/2), Strasbourg (10/2). Sub: Sirene (10/0), Espoir (11/0), Requin (5/1), Redoutable(11/0), Agosta(11/0). France starts with the following tech: Heavy Tanks 1 Anti Air 1 As Germans tried to conquer France with limited destructions to cities Advanced sub 1 Historical tech of France in this field POLAND ------------------- Blyskawica cruiser (2) added just for historical fun. Start at experience 4 to reflect port protection. BRITAIN ------------------- British fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Royal Oak (6/1), Nelson (10/1), Rodney (10/1), Duke of York (2/4), Howe (1/4), King George V (6/2), Revenge (6/1), Resolution (6/1), Vailant (8/1), Queen Elizabeth (8/1), Prince of Wales (4/3), Anson (1/0), Ramillies (6/1), Royal Sovereign (6/1), Malaya (8/1), Barham (8/1), Warspite (8/1). (total 17 battleships) Cruisers: Canadian Navy (6/1), Renown (8/1), Hood (9/1), Repulse (8/1). Sub: Sargo (9/0), Shark (9/0), Trident (10/0). Carriers: Furious (6/0), Ark Royal (10/0), Courageous (8/0), Glorious (8/0). GERMANY ------------------- Germany fleet changed, repositioned and initial strength changed to (Strength/Experience): Battleships: Scharnhorst (10/0), Gneisenau (10/0), Bismark (4/4), Tirpitz (2/4) Cruisers: Prinz Eugen (10/2), Graf Spee (8/2) Sub: Type IIC (12/0), Type VIIA (4/3, 6/2, 8/2, 12/1), Type VIIB (12/1), Type IXB (12/2), Type IXA (12/2), Type VII (12/1) ITALY ------------------- Italy starts with 110 MPP, so it can upgrade its battleships. Italy starts with the following tech: GLR 2 With the simulation scale chosed for naval warfare, Italian navy is underestimated (3 battleships are missing). This tech lvl is to better reflect the Italian navy strength. This is a bite gamey but that's the only way I have found. USSR starts with the following tech: Heavy Tanks 2 Anti Air 1 (2) GLR 1 (3) Rockets 2 Indus. tech 4 (2)Russia were able to defend their cities with troops under extrem conditions. This will slow Russian cities conquests by only air superiority only. (3)Russian navy is understimated in the game. As it is not possible to add units, this will help giving Russian navy more power. Design Comments -------------------------------------- - England starts with a REAL navy superiority that will allow more stargegies, escpecialy in the Mediteranean theatre. - For sub simulation, I used historical sources as a starting point but I had to make many changes for simulation purpose due to many reasons such as : the lack of possibilties for Allies to use sub on german trade, the small size of ocean areas and the very low capacity of sub to avaoid boats. So I had to divid allies sub fleet by 2 and to multiply long range germans ship values by two. Sub was the most difficult part to adapt for historical behaviour as they initialy have in SC huge attack capacity on boats and and negligible effects as trade hunters compared to their costs and life duration... Desaix [ December 19, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

Maybe a "No LR" tech rule can be used in the same way "no AA" was implemented... Desaix

Sombra is rigth, AI plays the same, just luck on dice rolls and starting unit experience is changing with the difficulty

If you use any... I do not so far... I tried some of them and they just created errors at launch so far... Any mod recommanded in particular ? Desaix

I prefer to limit house rules as much as I can and it is easy to have a more historical game by correcting the scenario... Thats what I am trying to do with my 3H scenario... SC gives us a good tool for battle simulations so we just have to tune the scenario to be more historic and I migth give some nice new challenges... In genereral it is better to have incitative rules for historical behaviors than written in stone home rules , I think... Desaix

#7 Desaix (me). Whoever is not happy with this just play me

So, after some few tests, I found that the sub modification was not that good and needed some tune up... In fact it brougth a complet review of the naval setup... So I have made Beta 2... Here are the main modifications done : This version has taken elements from: - 1939 Fall Weiss Revisited by Narayan Sengupta (NS) UNITED STATES ------------------- USA starts with Advanced Sub tech level 1. FRANCE ------------------- French armies have been redeployed along the border. One have been added, they all start not fully mobilized. (~NS) French fleets repositioned. Bretagne battleship starts at strenght 4. Redoutable and Requin sub fleets added. Provence and Lorraine battleships added at strength 5. France starts with GLR tech level 1. BRITAIN ------------------- Britain starts with 3 air fleet at lower strength levels. British fleets repositioned and initial strength changed. Battleships : King George V (10), Prince of Wales (6), Ramillies (6), Royal Sovereign (6), Revenge (10) added. Vailant removed. Cruisers : Edinburgh (10), Renown (8), Arethusa (10), Repulse (8) added. Gloucester removed. Sub : Sargo (10) and Shark (10) added. Carrier : Furious (5) added. GERMANY ------------------- Germany starts with Advanced Subs tech level 2 to reflect the 25 years development of sub doctrine which began in WW1 and carried through largely without interruption to WW2. (DG) All original sub units replaced by 9 sub fleets : Type IIC (12), Type VIIA (8, 10, 10, 12), Type VIIB (10), Type IXB (10), Type IXA (10), , Type VII (12). Some naval fleet have been added : Tirpitz battleship (1), Prinz Eugen cruiser (5), Bismark battleship (3), Graf Spee cruiser (3). Some naval units in the Atlantic start with experience due to their experienced crew at the beginning of the war. You can mail me to have the file and I will be pleased to do some test game (pbem or TCP) with you ... Desaix [ December 14, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

So here are the notes coming with scenario: 1939 Human versus Human Historical orientation mod (3H) By Desaix, version BETA 0.1 (8 Dec 2004) Email: desaix1789@yahoo.ca *** Please sent me any comments and suggestions as it is still a BETA and needs tons of tests *** This scenario is specially designed for human vs. human games to have a better game play in matter of balance and strategies options and also to give more historical flavour. This scenario has taken many of its elements from: - Historicity Mod Version: 1.1 by Dgaad (DG) - 1939 Fall Weiss Campaign - v1.04 by Bill Macon (BM) Thanks to them for their good ideas and deep knowledge of historical deployments. Texts from their changes have been used like it was written with their initial at end of the quote. The currently used bid system of 1/5/20 needs bids at least over 200 to have balanced games. This scenario will hopefully be balanced at lower bids and hopefully in a 1/5/10 system. It also adds more focus on the naval aspect and on the African theatre to allow more strategic options and for more historical flavour. UNITED STATES ------------------- USA starts with 3 research points. The US had excellent research capacity that was easily turned to wartime functions, the most notable being the Manhattan Project. (DG) FRANCE ------------------- No Free French option is recommended, as French were not a significant military factor after the fall of France. It also prevents the gamey escape strategy for stronger D day. Algerian Corps has +1 experience. These troops were highly competent and highly valued. The Germans suffered a high proportion of casualties in battle against them in early June, 1940 -- after it already appeared to everyone that France was going to lose. (DG) All Maginot units are given an entrenchment value of 4. (BM) French "Alpes" unit added to mountain hexes bordering Italy; corps, strength 7, entrenched 2. (DG) French Fleet in the Atlantic moved to Bordeaux. (DG) POLAND ------------------- Army Pomorze changed to start strength 8. Polish mobilization was not completed at war's start. (DG) Southernmost Polish corps has an entrenchment value of 2. The Katowice and Krakow areas were heavily fortified. (DG) Polish units in the "Danzig Corridor" moved to reflect more accurate Polish deployments. The Poles for political reasons had to adopt a "frontier defence" strategy which included defending the Corridor, since the control of the Corridor was the alleged reason for the conflict in the first place. The option of defence in depth, which was considered by the Polish command, was rejected for this political reason. The Poles did not expect to be able to hold the Corridor indefinitely; however no one expected the effects of a Blitzkrieg operation -- total collapse of Polish resistance in a matter of weeks. (Note: these deployments will make it easier for the Germans to get to Warsaw in one fell swoop, which is what in fact happened; advanced German units reached the outskirts of Warsaw on September 6th). (DG) BRITAIN ------------------- Western Desert Force Tank Group added in Egypt with an initial strength of 1, making it essentially useless. However, it can be built up rapidly and saves the British the trouble of having to build one and run the Med gauntlet. (DG) Wavell HQ added to Egypt with strength of 4. (DG) British 8th Army added to Egypt with strength of 1. (DG) All British troops in Egypt are positioned far from ports so if Britain decides a complete retreat from Egypt, it will take a bite of time to process. Bomber fleet starts with strength 6 and 2.0 experience for more efficiency and to reduce costs of operations for bombing over Germany. It will also allow a better increase of bombing operations. Strategic bombers repositioned to prevent deployment to Ireland on Turn 1 for U-boat spotting. (BM) Britain starts with Heavy Bomber level 1 to give more impact to bombing strategies. British "BEF" Army added to Manchester with strength of 3, experience 1. The BEF was deployed in October 1939. There is no way to do this in the game unless this is done. Experience rating reflects extraordinary quality of this core of British troops, which will be dissipated by reinforcement (British mobilization drafts). (DG) All British Naval Surface units in the game are Experience-1 at start (this does NOT include carriers). (DG) British get an additional Cruiser Unit located in the south Atlantic with strength of 4. This represents the Lend Lease destroyers given to Britain in 1940. It will take some time to move this unit up to Britain where it can be reinforced to full strength (representing the need to incorporate these destroyers into the Royal Navy). In sum, this unit should be ready for operations by mid-1940. It does NOT get the experience bonus that other RN surface units get because the destroyers sent to Britain were old WW1 tubs. (DG) Royal Canadian Navy Cruiser starts at St. Johns in Canada at strength 5. (BM) It does NOT get the experience bonus of other RN units. IRELAND ------------------- Ireland starts as Allies member. It reflects the general Commonwealth economic support to England and prevents the unhistorical plunder of Ireland by Britain. GERMANY ------------------- Luftflotte I and IV have +1 experience. This represents the extensive experience the Luftwaffe had already gotten in Spain. (DG) German 9th, 12th and 23rd Corps, Germany's western frontier are given either +3 or +2 entrenchment values. Also the 23 corps is relocated closer to the Rhine and gets river benefit. These corps and the German 9th Corps in Essen also have their strength changed to either 8 or 9, to represent the fact that divisions along the Western frontier were not fully mobilized at war's start. They were division cadres, largely, in the process of mobilization. (DG) German Rundstedt HQ is given initial experience of 1 (original: 0) to represent the traditions of the Prussian General staff, which resulted in a large body of competent and experienced officers in the German army. Also, the theories of Guderian and others gave the German Wehrmacht a confidence in novel operations that other armies lacked at the time. The Bock unit was not modified, because Guderian's changes were opposed by more than half the General Staff! (DG) German panzer groups set to experience 1 (original : 0) to reflect the novel organizing concepts of Panzer Warfare, which gave the Wehrmacht a concentration of panzer units and a solid doctrine on use of them in battle, a doctrine which had been taught and practised extensively since 1934, and to some extent used in real battle in Spain. (DG) All German Armies (but not Corps) are set to experience 1. Essentially the reason for this is that there is little question that German infantry units were generally much more effective than equal numbers of any other nation's infantry, at least in 1939-40 and beyond. As these Armies take casualties and get reinforced, particularly after an invasion of Russia, for example, this will be of less effect. (DG) Luftflotte II is decreased in starting strength to 5. The German air forces were not fully mobilized at the start of the Polish Campaign. (DG) Germany starts with Advanced Subs tech level 3 to reflect the 25 years development of sub doctrine which began in WW1 and carried through largely without interruption to WW2. (~DG) Sub Fleets in Atlantic set to strength 12, and moved more to the northwest. Sub fleet in Baltic set to strength 7. (DG) All sub fleets start at +4 experience due to their experienced crew at the beginning of the war. Start location of one German Cruiser unit changed to historical deployment near Danzig. (DG) "Bismarck" Battleship starts in Kiel at strength 2. (BM) Germany starts at Rocket level 3. Cost of research and unit building is not worth in the game. This change will allow Germany to have units to send V1-V2 to London for a reasonable construction price. Germany starts with a bomber fleet at strength 2. Historically, Germans were able to bomb Scapa Flow naval base, near Scotland, from German air bases in March 1940. Germany starts with Industrial Production tech level set to 1 (original: 0). German industry was well prepared for the war by Hitler's economic polices in the late 30's. USSR ------------------- USSR gets Heavy Tanks-2. While on a pure technology level, in game terms, the USSR should probably get Heavy Tanks-3, the reality was that Soviet armor organization and tactics left much to be desired in 1939-1941. When the Germans attacked in 1941, the Soviets had realized that their armor doctrine and tactics were unwieldy, and were in the process of changing over -- unfortunately the Germans struck at the moment these changes were about to take place so they could not be implemented until the Germans were checked later in 1941. (DG) USSR starts at Rocket level 2 so Rocket building might be worth it and may add more historical behaviours. USSR initial Industrial Production tech level set to 4 (original: 2). USSR starts at 64% of war readiness (original: 30%). USSR has been a major player in European geopolitics since the end of the XVIIIth century. This war readiness level is more realistic as Russia wouldn't let any country size Europe without reacting. It will also bring Russia into war around historical dates if historical strategy is chosen. USSR starts with 500 extra MPPs at mobilization. Comments on the Beta strategies -------------------------------------- - Battle of the Atlantic is more balanced and U boat is a real threat, Allies should proceed more cautiously or risk higher casualties. Germany has a higher naval potential (and sea air coverage) and can decide more easily to go for a naval strategy for Sealion as historically planned. Early British research should include sonar or risk tougher challenges if this option is chosen by Germany. - Allies start with a better foothold on Egypt that may allow them to hold it as the time window before Russian entry is shorter for Axis. - Poland historical positions will lead Poland to fall in historical time frame. - Superior German units will put more pressure on France that shouldn't be able to hold much after summer 40. U boats in Atlantic will also pressure France to use its fleet for Atlantic instead of disbanding it. - The superior German fleet and air fleet will definitely set more pressure on England that is more vulnerable to Sealion. Defence of England will probably be more on focus instead of massive corps dumping in France. Enjoy this scenario... Desaix [ December 08, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

Hello, So following up my thoughts on more historical and balanced human vs human scenario, I just have done a campain especialy for this... I ran it a couple of time on hot seat or vs computer but now it needs real tests to be improved It is a different logic games as tech and war entries are quite different, so new startegies are needed... So if anybody is up to test it pbem or Tcp ... Send me a mail if you want the campain file... If some of you can also host on a web site it would be nice to... Desaix [ January 30, 2005, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

I agree with Curry... Just a minor patch of changing some values like Curry said, not any engine change... Please... Desaix

Mmm... I looked at the campain editor and it seems that we can not change the setting of passive countries... So I guess there is no way to change the Russian setting for Barbarosa in the 1939 scenario as it is hardcoded somewhere in game or in the scenario file Unless Hubert gives us access to these setting for christmas... Desaix

Just a quick note about historical settings... This is not relevant here for the Russian invasion, since everybody is doing cookie-cutter, the historical accuracy is already dead. Russia and Spain would not have had the military setting they had if Sweden, Vichy, Malta, Egypt, Gibraltar etc. had fallen at the pace they do in cookie cutter startegy... So sticking to historical setting is just not... realist here Desaix

Hello folks, The more I play and the more I read AA, the more Allies need MPP bid to make even games with Axis... Definitly over 200 in 1/5/20 for most players... As The cookie-cutter is becoming the standard, Germany starts Barbarosa with a huge army and the standardized opening of the Russian campain is now able to destroy more than half of the Russian military capacity in a single turn (up to 9 armies, 2 tank, 2 plans as far as I remember)... So some players are even offering to play in 1/5/30 system for more balance... So it seems that Russian campain is the weakest point in the scenario as it is now a piece of cake without a huge bid to rebuild the Russian army... My question/suggestion is : is there a scenario specialy designed for games between 2 players ? If not maybe we should build it ? My ideas on this are to have just a couple of minor changes to the orginial campain to fix the Russian part so maybe we can come down to something like 1/5/10 bid system or something like this... My ideas to fix the Russian front in the secnario are: -Add corps in ALL Russian cities so they can start entrenchement since turn 1 or be operate... - Move tanks and plans one or 2 hex backward so they can't be destroyed in turn 1 - Add few corps (maybe 2 or 3) at the German border to prevent the deep advance an oversized german army is able to do in one turn... -Add a HQ for Russia at the begining of war (in Moscow I guess) -Maybe replace some of corps in cities by armies -Adding 1 or 2 Rocket units to Russian, because they have nice noise when they move and nobody have seen them for centuries (-Maybe one or 2 corps could be also added to Spain just to slow a little this campain by covering Vichy's border) So I was thinking that with very few changes to the scenario we could come to more balanced and fun games... What are your opinions ? Desaix [ December 04, 2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

Yes, my TCP works fine finaly... I will be available for TCP games. We tested it with Sombra but I am not sure I will be able to beat him this time, the germans did a cookie cutter and my delay startegy seem to be not that good finaly... I still need to learn and imporve couple of things... I am thinking about a new startegy already [ December 02, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Desaix ]

So I have just installed ICQ, my number is 231475896 I like pbem, I have just fixed (hopefully) my router so I should be able to TCP IP now...

@ Feldtrompeter "The last part is not true, AFAIK. UK can only exploit the AA bug from original UK ground but not from conquerred territories." Realy ? I have never pushed the AA thing to extended tests myself, so I try to save time by learning form more experienced players...

Draw ??? Mmm... that's not good, we want a winner and humiliated loser here !! Draw is a strange concept imo, especialy before 1946