Matt May

Put them into trucks with their also-not-represented artillery.

It can't be much more dangerous than the run-down areas of most of our large cities (sadly).

I set up a QB with guns in pillboxes and in trenches and shot at them with various things. The 20mm autocannons seemed deadliest to the pillboxes, but I didn't record any statistics. Usually the pillbox was supressed with the first slit penetration and died soon thereafter. HQ's commanding guns in trenches had a big effect, too. Odd that HQ's don't also have effects on bunkers & pillboxes (even at reduced range due to communication problems). I can't figure out why Battlefront didn't make bunkers & pillboxes empty and let the player fill them with whatever, but knowing what I know, I won't bother with pillboxes. I far prefer the way these forts are handled in Advanced Squad Leader.

Yes, I have done experiments comparing the survivability of guns in trenches vs. pillboxes and there is no doubt that the trench is far more survivable for the gun - just backwards of what one would expect.

I wonder if the designers got the stats for the concrete and wooden bunkers switched?

Maybe they can represent them as trucks like they plan to do for heavy arty. <#@$%&!*>

or whatever it was that the Germans called the women who flew the biplanes at night and straffed their camps. They could reduce a unit's readiness the next day by denying them sleep.

You don't suppose the Israelis would allow us to go through the Golan Heights, do you? Or maybe they will have their own forces jamming that area.

We can always hope, and this IS the proper venue for making noise!

"Very exciting", eh? I would imagine so! Thanks for the input from an expert!

Thanks for the help, John & Jason. My source was the ASL soviet artillery notes. I had assumed that they had done their homework, looks like they got a poor grade on that assignment. Just goes to show you that plagurism doesn't pay!

Ok, I'm not likely as well read on unit actions as some or perhaps even most of you. I rely on my knowledge of other games with designers who have presumably done their homework. Yes, I know its third-hand knowledge, but it works for me. Having said that, every game I've played has the Germans with increasingly less access to OBA as the war progresses. Why is that if, as some seem to imply, the arty escapes (into a smaller area thereby concentrating the number of such units)? This DID happen with German AA units, BTW, as the Americans found out in the Hurtgen Forrest. This isn't a highschool Oxford-Oregon debate where everything you say must be supported by a reference. It's OK to use your heads here (isn't it?) Look, if Battlefront wants to ignore this issue, fine. No game is perfect.

So there must be some way to distinguish between German OBA fired by 105mm & 150mm field guns and that fired by Wespe's and Hummel's (only the 150mm howitzer is not in the game), right? Perhaps, but then why is the 105mm howizer in the game? As the Russian, I might be perfectly happy with that so I could use 152's as AT guns. ...which is understandable, but, again, why does the German 105 howitzer get special treatment?

Yes, I can picture the scene: "Hey, Ivan, there's a Fascist tank over there comming this way. Do you think we should shoot it?" "I don't know, we have orders to fire at map coordinates XZY. If we survive the imminent destruction of our position, we may get shot by NKVD troops for not following orders."

Most of you guys seem to think it was quite rare, yet somehow, the majority (if not more) of German arty units in the war suffered this fate. I rather doubt Hitler would have tolerated a doctrine that basically threw away his heavy arty when they came in contact with the enemy, though I must confess that I have not studied the historical record in detail.

There's little need for special rules. Creation of the units would be simple enough - the fire charateristics of the guns is already in the game where those weapons are mounted on vehicles (requireing only slight modification to ROF), and there are already gigantic guns like the 128mmATG to use for size and turning rate and such. The biggest bother would be making a decent set of images, which I'm sure the community would be only too happy to supply in abundance.

I'm sorry, but that's dumb, just dumb. Why would the arty not fight? What if they get jumped before they can limber? By what you said a puny recon unit could destroy a heavy arty unit virtually w/o loss, and that just is not very likely.

What will happen when a Russian 152mm or 122mm or German 150mm arty battery gets overrun? These guns had direct fire capability and to assume that they would be abandoned before battle is a serious mistake, IMHO. There are no such arty units in CMBB other than as OBA. Will new units be added? If so, will they be retro-usable in CMBB?

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No, Battlefront didn't, but CM WAS orginally supposed to be "ASL for the computer". I guess I mentioned ASL because I consider it the yardstick to which I measure other games. That issue aside, I wonder what will happen in CMC when a Russian heavy arty unit gets overrun - will CMC assume that the Soviets just abandon their heavy guns for that battle?

While I appreciate the lectures on Russian vehicles mounting the 85 and 100mm guns and placement of artillery on the battlefield (which I am already well aware of), my point was to find out why these guns aren't in the game. (I guess I haven't been lucky enough to be able to deploy the 100mm as I haven't seen it appear on the (unrestricted) purchase list in the time frame it was available.) I don't buy the arguments about the heavy arty being excluded because of range issues when the 105mm howitzers are there. If the range argument is accurate, then why are the German mobile arty pieces, the Wespe and Hummel, represented? They should also be miles behind the lines in most cases. If CM was originally supposed to be "ASL for the computer" then why have they ignored these important units which were included in ASL?

Is that to say that your lines are never broken and artillery positions overrun? This is a glaring oversight on the part of Battlefront.

The Russian 85mm obr. 44, 100mm obr. 44 anti-tank guns are missing from the OB. I can understand the 100mm because it was exceedingly rare, but the 85mm was more common. Also, why are there no heavy Russian artillery guns (122mm & 152mm), except as OBA? I tried the search for this issue, but couldn't find anything. Thanks. [ October 19, 2005, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Matt May ]

Clash of Steel? Maybe that was the game I was thinking of - just change HC for CoS in my original post.

Clash of Steel was put out by a small company several years ago. The graphics for SC are identical (at least for units & maps). The game was ok, but the AI wasn't so hot. Did Battlefront buy the rights to CoS and revamp it (as seems obvious to me)? How does gameplay compare to CoS? I might be interested in buying SC if problems from CoS were fixed. Thanks for any replies. NOTE: I originally was thinking of High Command, but was corrected and edited the original post. Sorry. [ April 15, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Matt May ]