Dandelion

...seeing as the Canadians had been there quite recently (they left in 1925 I think?), some 6000 of them at least, is there no material revealing how they fared fighting the very régime Sergei suggests they'd save six years later? Personally I would have very much liked to see their faces as it was introduced to them that they'd fight under Soviet command, somewhere near chlodropopovsksomething. Then again, come to think of it, Stalins view upon life seems echoed by the Dieppe debacle. So maybe it wouldn't have mattered much to them after all. Chup Dandelion

Top of the Mornin' King Scored nothing on the armour. The training unit (100th) seems to have disappeared completely by mid August, and on the 341st I find no more precise locations than the vague regional reference I found yesterday - North of Rennes. Dinard had been evacuated by August (except for the Standort-Kdtr. Dinard - a staff), leaving the rather large airfield and also rather large POW camp there empty by the time fighting reached the town. Much the same with Dinan, which had a much smaller airfield (evacuated). Other than that, zip left. On the 77th, I see Zetterling has already listed Tessin. Of additional interest to the scenario designer is of course the quality of units, which is a good reason to add a little something about the origins: 1049th was the former 1021st, whereas 1050th was formed from a mix of units (IR336, GR973, Füs.Btl.364). Except for the cadre, they were all a mix of (mainly) Württembergers and (a few) Alsatians from the Ergänzungstruppen (i.e. the "white" classes that had had a shortened (1 year) basic training, the men aged 27 to 35). The cadre were Naumburgers (Saxons) coming from the ID336. The Naumburger units had reached fame in 1870 and WWI, thus had a symbolic value beyond the obvious in the German army. Anyway, the men of the cadre were originally from the Reserve (by 1944 aged 24 to 35) and had had complete basic training (2 years), with 2 years combat experience before reaching Normandy. Thus a whole other deal than the hapless 266th. Got us no further on the tanks I guess. I am not extremely surprised. Not meaning to sound cynical, but studying the Ardennes a number of years back I was sent on quite a few wild goose chases by US AARs, looking for German armoured formations that in the end turned out to not exist, or turned out to be much smaller and containing much lighter AFV than reported, invariably turning out to not have lost the amount of vehicles reported. Cheerio Dandelion

Yeah? What would those include? You must have mapped every single skirmish in the Cotentin over the years here Gotcha, will take a dive in the books tomorrow and see what we can dig up on the extended area. Yep, saw that. Also know I.D. 77 was there, or what was left of it. The info on the Ost units is really helpful.

Hi again King I see we're still in Bretagne. You mean any info on any units in Saint-Malo right? Not around Saint-Malo as in in Dinan? Assuming you mean in Saint-Malo; - I.D. 266 was there, a rather miserable unit. The guys were a cadre from Southern Germany boosting an unhappy majority of Alsatians. All of them aged 35 to 45, most of them with only 6 months of training behind them, and none with any combat experience. The division contained no armour or TDs. She didn't even have her Panzerjäger bn, nor her Füsilier bn. Rgts 897 and 899 were present, with three regular battallions each. In addition, the II./Ost-Ausb.Rgt.Mitte served as IV./897, and the Ost-Btl.629 served as IV./899. The division was additionally reinforced by the Ost(Wolgatatar)-Btl.627 and Ost-Btl.Dnjepr 602. In terms of infantry that was it, a queer lot. Her artillery regiment (266th of course) was as Bodenständig as the rest of them, they didn't even have horses enough to move the pieces around. Other than that we have the garrison of Saint-Malo. Looks a lot like the Brest garrison which we have discussed earlier. - Fest.Kdtr.St.Malo (a staff) - Festungs-Stammtruppen LXXIV (i.e. 74) of only 1 company - Marine-Artillerie-Abt.608 with three batteries plus three island batteries, all of them containing both naval guns and AA guns. - Heeres-Küstenartillerie-Regimentsstab 1266, unknown if any of her batteries were in St Malo. - Ortskommandantur St Malo (511), a staff - Sich.Btl. 1220 and 1222. These were lightly armed Landesschützen battallions, i.e. men aged 35 to 45. Not necessarily bad quality, but poorly equipped. - Techn.Btl 12, or possibly 13, source is unclear. It's a Pionier unit of staff type (relying on OT or RAD units to do the actual work). - Sicherheitsdienst, Kommandostelle Rennes, Außenstelle St. Malo (a handful of SD men). Apart from the naval guns, the Kriegsmarine had evacuated. Luftwaffe never had much in St. Malo, the airfields were in Dinan and Dinard nearby. Given the situation, there is always the possibility that stragglers from other units made it to St Malo, but were not recorded. As you point out however, one cannot find any armour of any type among the possible suspects. Or perhaps one suspect might be relevant. There was a training battallion, armour I mean, containing captured French tanks. Somewhere in Bretagne, can't seem locate them in August specifically. Maybe it's them playing around with the Americans. I'll get back when I've located these fellows. As for the 341st, did they really reach St Malo? I know they were in Rennes for some R&R when the invasion hit, and that they moved North to fight it, but I didn't know they went that far North. Sincerely Dandelion

They already have all the power, and a gazillion games just like this one, from which they have already made a gazillion bucks. Everybody's just repeating predictable boredom. I say more power to Grogs. Let's see something new in this business for once.

Stunning? You really think so? I'm not sure I agree. The German uniforms look like crap (excuse my Polish), Andrew has forgotten more about shades of field grey than these people will ever learn. US uniforms also crap, the backpack guy seems to wear a Gulf War uniform. That cute eggshell rounding of the WWII US helmet is completely absent and I can't seem to identify the equipment carried as WWII G.I. standard. Juju needs to help them out with them weapons there, seriously. The men look ok in terms of physical frame and animation there, compared to CM. Of course, so does Lego. I mean it's not up to FPS standard here either. I can't see those tanks being a great improvement over the-by-now-old-CM tanks, is that really a higher polycount? Look at that StuG there on the other screenshot, I don't find that impressive compared to one of our total redrawn from scratch Mods. And the Tiger - compare to Andrews latest in the thread nearby here - is it really an improvement? Isn't it just the wild gunners demanding all attention, and the dynamic lighting adding delightful depth? The wheels and roadwheels (and steeringwheels) look every bit as hexagonal as in the-by-now-old-CM don't they? Seems very similar to me, and not as skillfully "painted" as our modders can do. Houses look kind of neat - except it's the same house appearing all over, and with windows and doors dead parts of the wall graphics it looks every bit as non-intractive as any CM house does (at least you can enter a CM house). A bit like the three identifiable separate US soldiers appearing all over the place, as Steve points out (the weird rucksack, the baz man and the rifleman. Of course, looks really cool with the empty cartridges pouring out of the weapons, and the lighting and explosions seems generous. Would need to be generous, with everyone standing upright blasting away at eachother from ten metres range Nah, this ain't it. We're still in Kansas. Cheers Dandelion

Jitsuka? Who is Jitsuka? Thanks Flames. That settles it then I think, even a one metre layer of snow provides a fair chance of survival, albeit not without injury. And we need to recall Johns provided lines of "I certainly wouldn't" etc. Cheerio Dandelion

Hey, that's almost the same figure as I got, though I omitted dispersing the weight over the area of the falling man and got a higher figure. I feel so...engineer-ish. Cool. Anyway back to business, holding Flames and Yuv in the arm preventing them from fleeing, we remain at the last and critical question. Assuming a human body decelerating at those speeds (from 22 m/s to zero in 3.93m or 0.79m - assuming the complex dynamics of snow would land us someplace in between), would the G itself damage the person? - Paul, even living in Scandinavia these days, most of the snow I experience is the black, sooty variant that covers urban areas. Snowcovers even in these freezing Northern wastes posing as a nation rarely reach the metre on average - but as you say, in a modern society that could easily knock out traffic, electricity and other infrastructure. I have experienced powdersnow in the Alps though, have had it blow in my face like dust and the top 30-40cm ground cover being like walking in flour or lightweight sand really. Very arduous going. Snowlayers will follow a complex circle with freeze and refreeze in uneven layers, then compress itself unevenly, leaving us with a very varying degree of porosity (casuing avalanches too). You can have powdersnow for 20cm resting on a layer of tightly packed wet snow, making you slip all the time. Most arduous of all was when the topsnow started to melt on a sunny day, decresing porosity, then froze during the night creating a semi-ice toplayer next day. Arduous to walk in, and you'd cut your calfs in it. I am not totally alien to the idea of a person falling out of a plane and surviving when landing in snow. Like you I have a problem imagining what type of depth that would require IRL. Of course, I can also imagine what will happend if the guy is not in a perfect crucifix position, perfectly horizontal, when he lands. Even so, the guy simply has to be totally knocked out, must be a bit like being in a car accident or something. I imagine. I am trying to remember any alpinists falling in snow and surviving, but I guess they tend to hit rocks as they go down anyway. Cheers Dandelion

Hm. You're right. We can't ignore the dynamics of the snow. Freshly fallen, dry snow has the lowest density (the 1kg per cubic metre as above). Mean density of a snowlayer in mid winter is actually some 2-3 kg per cubic metre, depending on the freeze/refreeze cycle. At extreme pressure, snow can reach 5kg per cubic decimetre (I think the theoretical maximum is 5.5kg, found only in the polar regions). There's the range of impact resistance of snow. As for the placing a ground level as an absolute stop - the average snow depth for most of Canada (they started this insane debate, so lets remain there) is between 30 and 99 cm. Depths do not get deeper the farther North one goes, it is New Foundland and the Eastern coastal region who have the deepest snow covers. A tiny area close to Alaska does have an average of 300cm or more. (For comparison, mean snow cover in Siberia is highly similar, and most ground is really only covered by some 40cm - so Canada is a very snowy country). Lets say depth of snow cover is 100cm. Lets say the top layer of snow has a density of 1kg/m^3 and the lowest layer already has the 5kg/m^3, and thus will not compress. Five equally deep (20cm) layers of snow. What speed would the falling human have when actually reaching the ground? Er, right, I'm more of an ideas person. We wouldn't have an engineer or grad stud actually willing to undertake this excercise, around here, would we? A hopeful Dandelion

Ah, I had a faint hope some engineer would come along, attracted by the seemingly impossible maths in this equation Stay with us some more please Flame, I can't make this out myself. It is known that in terms of pure weight, dry snow weighs about 0,1Kg per litre (0,01 density m.). Dry snow, we also know, has about 40% porosity. The latter figure is assuming unconfined compression space. I feel we can leave it at that, and disregard the increasing density/decreasing porosity with depth. Given that - how many N can snow provide as reaction to the action of a falling body? And as a consequence, at what depth would said body reach absolute stop? Sincerely Dandelion

I quite agree. My comment was referring to the risk of fatal impact damage. The rate at which the kinetic energy leaves the body and transfers into the snow could reach fatal speed if the surface is too hard, killing the person. My comment merely wanted to clarify that the mere existence of a crisp surface did not in itself entail such a risk. We have people from Australia, Florida, Canada and such snowless places here so I just wanted to be perfectly clear on that point Well it is almost the same thickness In the Bundeswehr, 2000mm packed snow was considered enough protection against standard enemy assault rifle calibres. Considered roughly equivalent to about 1cm steel, in that respect. Nothing advanced about the maths, nor an extremely serious attempt at it. I simply halved the falling speed with the impact absorption, assuming no maximum depth. In real life of course as you know, snow will increase resistance with every centimeter because a) snow below surface is increasingly packed and the ground presents a terminal limit for compression. But that seemed too arduous to calculate. Regrettably, I omitted the spread of weight and calculated a human the shape of an average spear, landing on his head. But nonetheless. I believe we need some kind of appreciation of what speeds energy can safely leave a human body, to find a minimum snow cover for high altitude drop survival. If a bullet lose killing power (stops?) after travelling through 2 meters of packed snow, we might have the problem of a human body being destroyed if it experienced the same loss of speed at the same rate? Another, more practical problem would be angle of the body. Wouldn't want to fall head first, or with any limbs in the way, so to speak. One would need to know the impact absorption of human bone - at what energy does a spine snap? A thought that occured to me also, as I was walking last night, was the size of the hole in the snow. Given powdersnow, it might prove a serious problem getting up from a 2 meter hole (especially if it collapsed and buried you). My grandfather and his brothers had similar experiences in the Soviet Union five years earlier. Myself I haven't seen these depths, except in alpine terrain of course but even there only when gathered in depressions. But unpacked snow for 3 meters will certainly cushion the fall - even if spearshaped, landing on ones head Sincerely Dandelion

Yes Matt, but there is more to it than his name. His story as it is presented by the book vendors does not check out in any place at all And that's not just the nonexisting marines and his nonexisting command. For instance, the Sonthofener school, which he claims to have been drafted into at the age of 15, was not army. It was a Nazi party school, one of their "Ordenburg", or castle of the order. Some really weird things took place there. Nobody was drafted there - promising young party members (but not children) were admitted there to ensure the regrowth of future Nazi leadership. Sonthofen is in Allgäu, in what was then Pommern. He is supposed to have gone directly from there to a training camp someplace in East Prussia, to become member of a unit under Canaris command. This does not compute. He would have had to have military training first. Konrat claims to have trained in East Prussia. Training of the Brandenburger primarily took place in the former artillery barracks in Brandenburg/Havel (West Prussia), and though there were several smaller training installations I don't seem to find any in East Prussia. Also interesting perhaps is that he claims to have trained near the Wolfsschanze. Which in turn was in the Görlitzer FOrst near Rastenburg. Strange part is that the Schanze as such was not built until 1942, even though there was a headquarters there before that. But Hitler wasn't in that HQ before Barbarossa. 'Course, could be just a place reference, but it's just one more of those strange references. Then again of course, I do not own the book. There could be photo's, datas and maps in it corroborating his story completely. Does it contain any such? Does he state the exact name of his unit? Any names of his commanders or trainers? Any dates when assigned to GD, places or tasks? Any photo's or such? But you've seen all the Hollywood "Based on a true story" movies right? Gibsons "The Patriot" makes claim to be historical, and so did the "Enigma" movie where US submarines cracks the Enigma code - I mean even Black Hawk Down is referred to a "highly realistic" and close to documentary (this is not an attack against US movies, I am merely assuming we have both seen some of these). So. Some people have a very liberal view on truth. Konrat really sounds like somebody who threw together some cool stuff on Brandenburgers, Order castles, GD tough guys - you know all the boy-hero stuff - and put himself in it as a teen hero. He couldn't let go of the Prussian junker caste, or even the marines, though, who both actually belong to the war before the WWII. All of it ending with bitter resentment of the Nazis of course - not otherwise a characteristic feat of people who went in NS Führernachwuchs schools. Biggles is a great adventure. Cheerio Dandelion

Snow cannot reach density beyond 0,10. The crystals won't compress any further (but turn into glacier instead, or melt). Snow is normally around 0,01-02, even in thaw. It is at it's hardest in severe dry cold, when hardened surface layers are formed. That's how they build igloos. Such surfaces will not affect a person falling into snow very much in terms of impact (brittle), but it can cut him up severely with sharp ends. Other than that a falling human body can always be softly collected by snow covered ground. Theoretically. The actual problem with the theory is depth. It needs to be pretty darn deep to softly collect a guy falling from the sky. Simple application of Newton's law I believe. Mass multiplied by speed squared, divided by 2, to have the impact of the guy. Given the impact absorption and rate of breaking the fall of a ground with the mass of snow and - say - 0,05 density, we're at a minimum three meter snow cover right? Anyway. Never been in a place with a 3m snow cover. Cheerio Dandelion

Matt, There is even a Matt von Konrat you know In New Zeeland it seems. Anyway, I can't seem to enter that forum, but you are probably right. Here Konrat is described as a company-, then battallion commander. All Brandenburg commanders down to platoon level, and quite a few squadleaders, are known. Should make our job easier. Though I can't find any Konrat there. There is a Conrad, though in this case that's a first name. Original language of the book is English. I found these three texts in German, about the book: --- Georg von Konrat wurde in die Sonthofener Kaderschule und von dort in das Sonderschulungslager für Saboteure in einem entlegenen Teil Ostpreußens einberufen. 'Dem fünfzehnjährigen Jungen wurde mit unmenschlicher Härte das ABC des Saboteur-Spion-Kommandooffiziers eingetrichtert, vorgespielt und eingedroschen, und verbittert nennt er seine Lehrmeister "Mörder meiner Jugend". Seine Truppeneinheit, ein "Sonderkommando der Wehrmacht", untersteht Admiral Canaris und Hitler persönlich.' (OU). --- Angriff von innen Genf: Kossodo, 1973 Leinen. Neuwertig/Sehr gut. Erste Ausgabe. 20,9 cm. 398 S.; Vorsatz als Frontkarte gestaltet; Bericht eines deutschen Saboteur-Spions (Rumänische Front); --- Bis zum Frühling 1938 hatte der junge Junker Georg von Konrat auf dem großelterlichen Gut bei Tilsit ein sorgenfreies und vergnügtes Leben geführt. Da kam plötzlich die Einberufung in die Sonthofener Kaderschule, und von dort in das Sonderschulungslager für Saboteure in einem entlegenen Teil Ostpreußens, nicht weit von der "Wolfsschanze" entfernt. Dem 15jährigen Jungen wurde mit unmenschlciher Häerte das ABC des Saboteur-Spion-Kommandooffiziers eingetrichtert, vorgespielt und engedrochen. Seine Truppeneinheit, ein "Sonderkommande der Wehrmacht", untersteht Admiral Canaris und Hitler persönlich. Sie sind dazu auserlesen, als perfekte Russen in Sowjetarmeeuniformen hinter die russischen Linien geschleust zu werden, um dort mit Sabotageakten den deutschen Vormarsch zu erleichtern. --- The claim is clear then, as the only units serving directly under Canaris (and he was directly under Hitler all the way to his downfall) were the Brandenburger and thus Konrat is illustrated as a Brandenburger proper. Specifically, a drafted 15 year old boy who then moves on to become a battallion commander. Actually, Sabotage was another detachment within the Abwehr. The Brandenburger were diversionary troops. Spying was, again, yet another detachment. Our kid here seems to have been trained in every aspect of military intelligence, in that secret training camp in remote Eastern Prussia This is a boybook Matt. Biggles type. But that's no reason to not pick up ideas for scenarios from it, IMHO. A good idea is a good idea. Sincerely Dandelion

Matt, I think you might have been right in assuming, in your first post, that this book is purely fictional. Because that's a very strange reference he makes there about the Marines. Can't find any reference to the 115th in the Tessin works (which means it was not a German Army, Navy or Air Force unit). Nor any such unit or codename in Kurowskis work on the Military Intelligence ("Brandeburger") units. The latter do not form until September 1939, and then only in company strength, some 70 men all from the Abwehr. A second company is added in November, mainly from Slovaks and volunteers from the Artillery, and then follow the other two companies in December. None list any discernable connection to water. Of the specialist platoons there was an arctic one, motorcycle, paratroop ad three ethnically specialised ones - but no marines. If they belonged to Mil.Int. I can't see why they'd be assigned to army service in 41. There was a desperate shortage of Brandenburgers, and the Frontaufklärungskommandos (Brandenburger type units of other kinds). It was only after the collapse of the Abwehr that Special Forces were converted to army units and did frontline duty. Furthermore, the term "Marine" did not exist in the German army (or Navy). References to "Marine", spelled as such, should be translated to "Naval" in English, and means sailors serving in an infantry capacity. There was one effective such division in 1945, plus more forming, and throughout the war bands of stranded sailors or coastal artillerymen could form ad hoc units with the title Marine (the German word, not the English). As a cover, it seems peculiar. The Brandenburgers themselves mostly used "construction unit" covers, while some posed as signal troops. The Navy had Special Forces, such as divers, but no infantry force. Within the Brandenburger, a Küstenjäger battallion appears much later (than Barbarossa), and this unit could be called Marines in the Anglo-Saxon sense. Well, it could perform assault landings anyway, and had assault boats of Allied type (well, most were stolen Allied boats...). It served in the Aegean and Adriatic, primarily. Other than that, the Brandenburger formed a Dreigroschen flotilla for the invasion of Ösel, but that didn't turn out very well at all. And there was a security force patrolling the Danube, which also had boats. Lastly, national titles ("Prussian") were dropped in 1921, thus not in official use after that in the German army. You can find such references in popular literature - even contemporary newspapers and such - since they were and remain popular. But they were not used in unit names/numbers. On another note, by Barbarossa, GD was still only a regiment (mot.), formed from the Wach-Rgt Berlin, elements from Wach-Btl 631 boosted by elements from the 92nd Inf Rgt, parts of Inf.-Lehr.Btl.(mot) as well as elements from II. and III Btl of the Inf.-Lehr.Rgt Döberitz. Plus the regimental companies from various sources. Prussians, most of them, but no Marines as part of the unit (GD became a division march-may 1942). I might add that this was not the original GD Regiment. The original regiment was formed in June 1939, consisting entirely of men from the Wach Rgt Berlin, a regular army unit responsible for the security of critical public and military institutions in Berlin. They guarded these, while the Abwehr were responsible for the undercover security of the military institutions as well as anything related to the Foreign ministry (RSHA were responsible for the other half of GDs guard objects, i.e. public institutions). Cheerio Dandelion

The ghost of your long lost memories whispers that the units eventually developing into "Brandenburger", were responsible for the security of the General Staff and several other institutions in Berlin, who were also guarded by the Wach Bataillon - to become GD. As a general note to the not so fiercely grog-ish as Michael, the Brandenburg Division, after being converted from Special Forces into Panzergrenadiere in September 1944, belonged to the Großdeutschland Panzer-Korps. Rittmeister Helmuth Spaeter was originally a cavalry (recon) man, commanding the 2./Pz-Aufkl.Abt "Großdeutschland". He climbed the ladder and became an officer of the general staff, ending up as the Ib of the Brandenburg Division (then as Maj.i.G.). Apparently, he was a very well liked officer in the Division. But he actually served in it only after the conversion from Army Intelligence to line combat unit. Michael has a nice photo of him on his site too, IIRC. Spaeter I mean. Don't you? Cheers Dandelion

Hi there Matt The Kurowski volumes are, I believe, generally regarded as the standard work on the German special operations forces. (Franz Kurowski, Deutsche Kommandotrupps 1939-45, vol I and II). "Brandenburger" is popularly used to denote also those units not actually belonging to that particular unit (800), but carying out special forces operations of the type your book above describes. Kurowski covers all of them too. But he does not cover the "Oranienburger" units very closely. I get the impression he does not like them (they were SS), but that's just my personal speculation. There is no solid work on the Oranienburger units that I know of. The volumes are good but not exhaustive. Very difficult to research the topic scientifically since the Western Allies and Soviets never returned the archives and files concerning the German Foreign Ministry armed branch, nor those on the German military intelligence armed branch. Nor can these be found in US archives today since they mysteriously "disappeared" (but maybe in the recently opened Soviet?). I think Kurowski has what there is to be found in his volumes. He has managed to find an adequate number of survivors to interview as well. I've got the volumes, so if there was something particular that you were curious about I could look it up for you. I'm not alien to writing longer posts if you're not alien to reading them. Otherwise, the volumes are readily available on the market. Not sure if there is an English translation, but I imagine there must be since there really is no equivalent scientific effort made, and the topic fascinates many people. Sincerely Dandelion

To paradrop back into topic... Brent, Couldn't it be that the Germans lost? And that it is more stimulating defeating history than repeating it? Seeing as no political consequences of a reversed course of history need be suffered in this case. Defeating odds is attractive. Cheerio Dandelion

I thought she had been exposed as a fraud. :confused: Michael </font>

I think if BFC managed to model all this to your satisfaction, then they could sell out to the armies of the world and never work another day, just counting the money rolling in. But you would probably not get to play with it. </font>

Er... Steve, while you were away, the forum has adopted Elena Filatova as a new honourable member, our prime member in fact, and I think we would all prefer it if you did not use derogatory terms on women while the lady is present, since we are now all married to this Ukrainian solitaire and are all prone to take offense on her behalf. Infantry Steve, infantry. Qualified infantrymen with a decisive say in the design, knowing the scent of flowers, the wavering of a single grass in the wind, the jamming of a rifle, the silhouette of a rifleman doing the 1000 yard stare, the feeling of hitting the grass with a 25 kg Bergen on your back and your helm tilting forward covering your eyes. The infantrymen are calling out for less abstraction, and more intimate understanding of bushlevel warfare. Er... If it is all the same to you, would you mind settling the size of terrain tiles before the first screenshots come? I say 5 metres... whats your bid? Oh yes you did. You always knew we were creating the best wargame ever. You said so, you asked us for it (I can quote the BTS on it). That was our purpouse, it was the reason for the gathering of Grogs here. We used to look at ASL back then, because ASL was the best thing that far. You wanted to create something beyond it. this was ur task at the time. Take your time. As long as it becomes absolutely perfect and youknowwhat retentative historically accurate, we'll be around waiting. Accurate modelling of automatic weapons, as well as the sepparate modelling of suppressing and accurate (killing) firepower - and terrain - is the key to infantry combat. You knew that already, I just wanted to make a statement of it. Just give me a holler if there's anything on the Germans that you need (except translation - Andreas is more skilled on translation - I was thinking more organisation an equipment). Dandelion (ARHALG-Ge)

Yes Michael I had that same thought, reading the per se very interesting posts in the thread. What exactly do we all mean with Blitzkrieg? The term Blitzkrieg is sometimes used in literature to refer to the German strategic conviction of assaulting her neighbour states so fast that they had no chance to mobilise. German postwar literature also use it. You know the railways, highways, obsession with mobilisation tables. Because if the enemy had time to prepare, Germanys inferior strength would loose the war for her, she never could win a war of attrition. In WWII that meant using motorised columns of course, but also airborne assault, diversionary units, sheer bluff and diplomatic lies. The usefulness of these methods ended in 1941 of course. There were no neighbours left to assault. Operational doctrine for combined arms were not static. I must agree that German doctrine and training was very much superior in the early war. It's not an issue of controversy really, the UK started copying German manuals word by word after the initial experiences (in particular the 1941 Infantry manual). They had a chance to adapt and overcome - the others did not. None of the states Germany faced had a streamlined doctrine, to which equipment was designed and men thoroughly trained, in remotely the determined manner. The UK and French - and Poles, Dutch, Belgians, Greeks etc - had only moral fibre and guts to offer against that, and as poignant as such displays are they don't lead to victory, only heroic defeats. Western equipment were by and large skilled designs, very good at most things but purpouse designed for nothing in particular, and lacking a successful doctrinal context. I fail to find a single significant battle where allied forces win, or even extract a draw, on a 1:1 basis with German troops of this phase. Antitank weaponry was at this time inferior to armoured assault, it was rational to focus on the latter. Men and formations were inexperienced, C3I not yet fully developed to WWII standards, when armour appeared men very often ran away. German doctrine worked fine, with a few non-significant hickups and backlashes. Problems arise when the conditions of combat changes for the Germans. Enemy antitank firepower increases, troop density is decreased, the sky is contested, well trained young motivated and fit troops were becoming depleted. You need the latter for offensive operations. The enemy grows experienced and increasingly immune to bluff and threat, they reach comparable levels of skill and training and superior numbers and resources. Given the picture as a whole, from rifles to airplanes, the enemy was rapidly chewing up Germanys edge on the field. Essentially the same situation as Japan had after the intial onslaught in many ways. German doctrines were revised to meet the challenge. The comparing between the two Ardennes offensives 40-44 reveals most of the change of offensive doctrine that took place during the war. In 1944, not one of the offensive pincers opened with armoured direct assault whereas in 1940 all of them did. It's all like one of them movies really. Good guy gets beat at first, then recovers, train intensely and finally best the bad guy - but it isn't easy. I couldn't agree that Germany's doctrines were a hoax, nor that these cost her the war. On the contrary IMHO doctrine, purpouse design and close attention to training won her the victories that she had. The success of the doctrine is reflected in the development of modern armies after the war, from the minute to the overall picture. It is rather fortunate that her strategic capacity, in contrast, was so hopelessly inferior to her enemies, and strangely underdeveloped. Cheerio Dandelion

Yes, same standards in the German army at the time - 5 km/h default standard, a days march was considered 40 km (8 hours marching time), a days forced march was 60 (12 hours marching). The latter was considered to destroy units, except regulars, paras and their like. Standard march schedule for infantry was march an hour, rest fifteen, march again and they had thirty minute breaks every two hours, and a one-hour chow break every four hours. I think this must be the same more or less in all armies, as humans are the same everywhere. In 6 hours they'd be capable to cover 30 kms, but the pace would be considered forced of course. I assume the men rested and ate before doing the same distance again. The 352nd actually had an abnormal amount of transportation, as they had absorbed that of the 321st. But still, it means only 20 extra trucks assuming the companies of the 321st were at full strength (and excluding all unit-organic vehicles, since they had other things to carry anyway). 4 transport coys of some 40 trucks can't lift a regiment. gkdo II Fsch had no particular transport units and nor were there any combat-usable such at AOK 7. Cannibalising other divisional units for transport would mean making these static instead, and it would still be difficult to muster the needs of a regiment. On Michaels general question - yes the Germans also had a system of transport companies, be it not identical to the UK/CW (more similar to US I think). The suffix "teilmot" or "tmot" meant that the majority, but not all, of a division could be lifted on wheels (or towed). This was achieved by a mix of unit-organic vehicles and divisional transport assets. The Germans did in certain cases have Corps transport assets as well (that were not part of the supply chain), and in some cases Army assets, but these were tasked with the lifting of static units. E.g. Army- or Corps level AA units that had no vehicles of their own. The rationae again being that not all of the latter needed redeployment at the same time. Problems arose in Normandy when they did. Cheerio Dandelion

You really think we can do that on this stage? I don't. </font>

Yup, frequently, Freiburg is any researchers base of operations you know. There is a form to fill, with the documents (usually pages in microfilms) that you want. I hope you are being literal about it being your next stop because your initial dilemma - seeing as you're one of them people relocated to the New World - is that you have to go there and look at the microrilms to know what you want. There is another form to fill when you order time and chair there, and if it is crowded you'll be wise to include a letter of introduction explaining the urgency and importance of your research, or you might face some waiting. They don't do the research for you, they just reproduce whatever specific document you order. But you might be interested in documents you already have ID on (from footnotes or such), which nullifies the problem entirely. By the way do you read German? The documents are all in German you know. Freiburg then sends it all to a company in Koblenz (Selke), with which you will have all further contact, payments etc. Good company, good speed, the outsourcing was an improvement in this case. Until recently they reproduced these orders at Lichterfelde, a name no doubt ringing a bell with a person interested in the Waffen SS. You're the second Canadian here not mentioning the USNA. I am now suspecting a boycot or some kind of suppressed hostility. You know ze Amerikaner stole all of our archives and only gave it back to us after having copied it - all of the present BA/MA and some of the Berlin files - after WWII. I think they took some eight to ten years completing this act of piracy too, so I'd be amazed if there was a document in Freiburg that has not the very same ID in Washington DC - they copied the archive structure as well you see. Except maybe for a few chapters early war documents that ze Sowjets stole instead. If language is a problem - do have a go at the many reports that the US Army forced several of our officers to write for them after the war. Basically AARs or Special Studies that the Americans wanted to benefit from. All of those are in English, or have a quality translation, and not all of them have superior Germanspeaking counterparts. These are also found in the USNA. Several posters here are USNA veterans. Try hollering for Harry Yeide, he's been there a lot recently Hope that helps and let me know if it doesn't and we'll take it from there. Canadelion