SeaMonkey

All out amphibious attack....hmmm...let's see = first of all try to get your amphibious tech as high as possible = attack value. Next, park your best naval shore bombardment units next to the target, usually BBs and CAs. Now bring your carriers into range of the target and if there are close airbases, station your TAC units within range of your target, and it's always a good idea to have them HQ supported. In fact you will want all your attacking units at the highest degree of readiness and morale possible. Now for the mission, all out amphibious attack = bombard, ie. presoften your target with the BBs and CAs then move away. Bring your amphibious attack units adjacent to the target as your bombarding units were and give the target "Hell" with their attacks. Now, if you have landbased air(TAC) in range, sorti them to hit any targets that may have survived the previous attacks, the defenders will surely be reeling by now from the maelstrom. If there are surviving units, then it's time to bring offshore CAGs from your attack CVs to bare and concentrate them on the weakest unit still effective to vanquish it so that you may land your previous deployed amphibs and attack with them once they are on dry land. If this doesn't capture the target, then try again the next turn, but beware enemy reactions, the first assault is usually the most effective. Now for the "mix"(yellow) mode of CV/CAG units. If you are attacking a tile that you may not have reconnoitred to the fullest extent and there is a possibility of enemy fighter interception then it is better to send your attack bombers with an escort of fighters to minimize their(bombers) losses over the target.

Don't forget when refering to crispy's #4 that taking easy countries like Denmark, Low Countries and Norway will boost your morale readiness to > 100 just before intiating the DoW of France.

Use the "S" key to see the map supply strength visualization of each tile, you can figure it out from there.

Interesting Mike, I hadn't realized the editor had gone to such lengths. I'm looking forward to playing your mod, let me know when you've fleshed it out to a balance testing degree.

I haven't looked into the editor in a long time, but the last time you couldn't set a secondary effect for carrier strategic attack value where the increasing naval tech would allow a greater % hit possibility on a land unit. Are y'all sure about that, cause that is what I'm saying? As bomber tech increases, the likelihood of a hit on a resource occupying land unit goes up 10% per level(secondary effect). As far as supply, what I was refering to is a training model based upon the ability to overstrength a unit(CAG) one point per turn as long as the CV was in a 10 supply port. Since most training accomodations, target ranges, adequate runways, senior airmen, etc were usually a part of the homeland's port facilites, these would be the only places that would allow the overstrengthening.

Not trying to make a complicated change, just a tweak or two. SC obviously has the best feature for this simulation at this scale, but.....! I find the losses suffered by ground forces attacked by carrier air groups to be excessive, especially early in the war, and that coupled with the double strike moves me outside the bounds of reality. The primary mission of early CVs was raiding, directed mostly at naval vessels and port facilities, so the naval attack factor is fine, but I would like to see a diminish of supply as in a strategic attack and the subsequent loss of efficiency. As for land units a relative decrease in morale and readiness would be a better attack effect by CAGs. The losses can come later when the % possibility of a hit increases the way greater tech levels of strategic bombers work presently. Now for the experience losses from aircraft replacements in decimated CAGs that are subsequently reinforced. The thing here is the pilots and yes I know there were increasing losses to the IJN competency level as their CAGs didn't receive adequately trained pilots as the war progressed. What I would like to see is the experience level of a CV/CAG unit only fall with the ship repair reinforcements and not the CAG associated with it. This way the CAG can acquire experience later on in the war and coupled with advanced naval tech actually have a better chance to cause more losses for ground strikes just as it happened with the improving doctrine. Imagine that now once the experience level rise for the CV/CAG unit that the overstrengthening feature of SC of one per turn is a simulation of additional training for the CAGs and represents a player's conscious effort to improve his pilot pool. I'm not exactly cozy with these thoughts, but something about this SC carrier aviation model bothers me and I'm just trying to air it out. Someone (Mike) give me some additional thoughts or rationalizations so I can be a bit more comfortable with this SC feature.:confused: Please!:eek:

Hey Bill and Hubert, np with that new supply model, I'll assume it'll be available for SC3, which, of course, I'm looking forward to, perhaps in a year or two. But I do have one question, or a hypothetical about how this supply model will work for an HQ(supply source) surrounded by 4 enemy units while occupying a primary or secondary supply source. Given the above conditions, would the HQ be able to reinforce to strength 8 if the occupied source has value of zero(since HQ has integral supply of 5); strength 10 if value is >1? And thanks for the previous answer, you guys' effort is always appreciated. SC has gotten so good over the years, I'm truly astounded that y'all have hung in there with this superior product. It's not often you see this depth of dedication.

We need a new calculation for morale and readiness not dependent upon strength. As sometimes designers distribute formations that are smaller than corps throughout minor countries, these forces shouldn't lose M & R just because they are understrength. It's bad enough that they see decreasing M & R from low supply. The loss of M & R should be as a result of combat losses, but it should not be a requirement to reinforce them to regain M & R or further decreases shouldn't be a consequence of not issuing replacements to understrength units.

SRA = Southern resource area, DEI, Borneo, Malaya, Philippines, etc. Historically this is what the Japanese wanted access to, this resource area, but they believed(incorrectly) that any move in that direction would immediately bring UK and USA into the conflict, hence PH. Easy to defend with an abundance of oil and rubber the SRA(sans Philippines) presents a unique historical alternative as I'm sure UK and the Dutch were in no position to resist Japanese advances and FDR would be hard pressed to get Congress to go to war for protection of European colonial possessions.

Here's an alternative, forget China, it's too expensive, instead chip away where you can get 0-0 attack results or better to max experience. Rotate them in and out of combat when they are maxed readiness and morale keeping the diminished next to an HQ(9 supply). Move your units into locations to defend the coast and good counterattack advantages, make the Chinese come to you. Use your CVs to only kill off Chinese units that you can get to strength 4 or less, check their experience and make sure R & M < 40, as low as possible makes easy kills without CAG losses. If you want, do take Nanning with the above strategy of DoWing FIC first and surround the place. Now build your tanks, research IW, motors, and Tks and concentrate on taking the SRA, especially the oil. Now that you have a couple of well experienced Army groups and it should be the spring of 42, attack USSR and with German coordination the Reds will be toast early on, or....... think about India.:cool:

OK then, I have another idea, dispense with the armies, make them an unmotorized Corps with a low AP to start. Design the Corps icon to be motorized with the appropriate AP and MPP cost. Allow the countries that had motorized capabililty the first motorization tech level with no further increases available in that tech and when applying the motorized tech to units without it a gigantic cost of MPPs to have the extra AP. In essence, you now have a motorized corps for the build Q and an unmotorized one for the players' discretion to upgrade the mobility factor, albeit at a high cost, as was the historical case.

Well since you're talking WW2, I'll add an opinion. Divisions would start at the base, 0 for attack and perhaps 0.5 for defense, both soft & tank, but would have a high evasion, perhaps 30%, maybe more. Corps, being two or more divisions, probably start at 1 for both attack & defense, both types of targets, and with a lower evasion. Armies usually contain 2 or more Corps so 2 is the starting ratings with the base evasion of 0% due to their high density of deployment. Obviously the tech upgrades can account for additional assets and upgraded weaponry. I would design 5 levels at 0.5 increase per level so that max for Div.= 2.5/3, Corps 3.5/3.5 and Armies 4.5/4.5 and making sure that the smaller formations have added mobility.

And....how about that supply reduction siege mode for Gold?

Let me first say that being here since the early days of SC1 the amphibious feature has seen a vast improvement. I mean, there wasn't one, so this has been one stiff climb and we're almost at the summit. Probably the most sophisticated model SC has yet to pull off and it coincides with the reality of how difficult the mission actually was. Specialty training, coordination of movements and unique devices wholly devised for this most difficult operation are just some of the characteristics of amphibious warfare and that is why it should be left for only SC's special forces to conduct. Every major of SC had some ability to pull off the maneuver, even in the early days, so the beginning force limit should take that into account. Level 0 only provides for the movement and embarkation and disembarkation from non port hexes with only perhaps a nominal MPP price, for the price of research to the next level should reflect the doctrinal changes and investment into more sophisticated weaponry and auxilary craft to enhance the mission. Level 1 perhaps should trigger a DE, as should the following levels, to add more units to the amphibious force pool/build Q with an allocation of MPPs devised by the designer. As Mike suggested the higher tech units should be stronger(moving up to 15s), larger formations and subsequently display an ability to attack from the water's edge with an increasing evasion factor. Higher levels of tech allow more attacks, greater evasion of casualties to reflect the increasing command & control of joint forces. Perhaps the units activated by DE's should have increasing numbers of experience medals as that substantially helps their overall cohesion/effectiveness and ability to absorb counterattacks. I think you get my drift. In the current model, the ability to put the numerous amphibious units on the water dependent upon MPPs just doesn't come close to reflecting the limitations WW2 nations actually had with respect to implimenting such intricate warfare in the scale presented. I like the current simplicity, but remember, future units with more abilities, able to act and react within an SC turn can make things easier for the players. How about a transport that can drop off multiple amphibs at the assault beaches, move on and drop more? Moving one or two, perhaps even three aqueous born units around the SC map sounds a whole lot more inviting than a dozen.

That post just barely made it, I'll wait till tomorrow at work with the T1 line and give you my thoughts on how SC3 should handle amphibious operations at each level of research.

Am in agreement, but what I would like to see is amphibs as a transport icon until the moment of the assault for long sea voyages. The enemy does not need to see which I have on the water. Actually, I've tried to post a number of times, but my slow internet connection has disallowed some of my more specific explanations. Let's see if this goes through and I'll follow up.

I hesitate to suggest a special unit for SC3, but IRL, the troops were carried as you said, while their landing craft, assault impliments, traveled apart. Only at the assault beaches were the two combined to perform the invasion.

Perhaps you should scrutinize your target selection with a little more care, the SRA offers some possibilities for a beginning. Step by step, don't forget LR and recon.

Simple, as historical, in the vicinity of friendly land based air!

Another excellent examination of SC mechanics for which I concur, Mike. I understand that mostly you are defining the tools for current modders of SC to use, yet it seems we are moving into some functions of the hopeful future release of SC3 and that is what I'm commenting on in my posts. For SC3, I would like to see some limiting factor of amphibious capability as one of the true axioms of the WW2 mission execution was the availability of landing craft. As an abstract, SC2 uses the current amount of MPPs as the limiting factor which may be sufficient, if not realistic. For SC3, to better represent the mechanics of the mission, I believe that the use of a transport that can assume the amphibious function in proximity of the target would better represent the feature.

Pretty much summarized as Amadeus said. Supply and readiness is very important so any units you wish to be effective, make sure they are at strength 8 and in best supply available. As far as reinforcements, watch your experience medals and once you get close to 8 strength, don't trade further strengthening for experience. It may be advantageous to allow units that have fallen to less than 50% morale and readiness to rest a few turns in maximum supply and slowly add 1 strength point per turn to diminish the experience loss.

One of the biggest, if not the biggest difference is now a unit in contact with 4 enemy units(surrounded) will lose supply as it is considered out of supply(siege condition). I'm wondering if that holds true if the unit is an HQ?

Encounters or the mission? If both, then we need to consider the logistical realm, especially for islands as they simulate non-moving naval units to some degree. Personally I'd like to see a deteriating situation of supply for islands that are cut off by naval supremacy of one side or the other. Either through control of seazones or possession of hexes which switch from one side to the other with the last to pass through movement mechanism. There would have to be some definition of what constitutes an island status as larger land areas are self sustaining. Air supply and of course by submarine would also have to be considered with the ability of the enemy to intercept these missions. The islands need a semblance of importance due to supply/force projection and land base air dominance that was their historical role.

To expand on PowerG's excellent point, consider the definition of the SC unit, "Bombers". In retrospect we see that each nation had its own idea of what the "Bomber's" mission should entail and that is where it is up to the game designer to allow the customization of the "Bomber" concept to each individual player. I ask you, given the cost estimate that Mike has laid out, would you buy a bomber if you could acquire it at minimal strength for a lessened cost? Now, again, would the unit be more attractive if you could add embellishments such as long range, heavy(strategic mission), interdictive(supply, morale, effectiveness decreases), ground support, recon and of course the naval mission? Seems like a pretty decent unit to add to your combat strategy and with the available upgrades to create a mission specific unit, or one that can have multiple roles but at a tremendous cost.

Try some of the other campaigns Amadeus. I grew tired of the same old beginning, choreographed opening moves and started sampling, "Axis of Evil", "High Tide", and "The Last Democracy". There is still "Allies Strike Back" and the "1948" scenario and if they are as unique as the aforementioned campaigns, there are a great many playing days a head of me. So to everyone who has grown a little bored of the opening 1939 campaign, I urge you to try the others, you will be richly rewarded.:cool: