SeaMonkey

Hey Cantona, I remember that campaign, I still have it on a thumb drive somewhere. That was a big map, with Malta and Crete, most of the Eastern Med too. As I remember, it was my SC rendition of the old SPI "PanzerArmee Afrika" board game, expanded to include the naval-air element. One of my all time favorites, still haven't played anything that compares with those large sweeping movement capabilities.

Whatever Hubert and Bill decide on, please, guys, make sure those HQs will be degradable/not recovering their supply status also when in an isolated condition or we'll have those units in contact forever getting reinforcements. And, thanks so much for listening to us fans, we do appreciate y'alls hard work.

Would be my pleasure Mancspartan, as I'm thinking this through as we go. "Primary" = a source of 10 supply (abbrev. P) "Secondary" = a source of 5 supply (abbrev. S) Both P and S supply sources are subject to automatic degradation, 1 per turn, if not connected to the overall Allied or Axis logistical net. If either a P or an S is designated as having "Capital Status"(abbrev. CS) it is not subject to automatic degradation when unconnected and can only be reduced by enemy actions. If a P or S suffers degradation, either automatically or by enemy action, it can recover by being connected to the overall Allied or Axis logistical net or by being linked to another P or S with a greater supply level in which case it can recover to the maximum supply of any linked P or S, 1 per turn. I believe that covers it, simple...right?

One thing I've thought of, which may be difficult to code, is if you have a grouping of 2 or more supply sources(all without cs) cut off from the overall Allied or Axis net they should automatically degrade 1 supply per turn. But, since they are mutually supporting and have the ability to rise to the highest supply level of any one of the linked supply sources(in the isolated pocket), there may be a case where a supply source(s) is both recovering and degrading at the same time. Hubert, can you code something like that, where supply sources(without cs) would never rise above the strongest supply source level in the isolated pocket, while that strongest supply source(in the pocket) is also degrading 1 supply per turn?

Alright, I'm going to lay out a more complex supply model for a major power and I'll use Hubert's original set up of France, Paris, Verdun(fortress), Caen, throw in a port like Cherbourg and a bordering neutral country as it has relevance with connection to the overall Allied supply net. Does everyone understand the definitions and rules around a "primary" and "secondary" supply source? Do we understand how "capital status" changes those definitions? Lastly, as far as the supply recovery ability of supply sources, do we see how the Allied or Axis net(inter) connection differs from the smaller (intra) linkage of supply sources? It's all pretty simple, after all I am a simpleton, but if anyone needs clarification or can propose a scenario not covered by these rules, we need to hash this out.:confused:

Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding Glabro, but it seemed you were asking about the present SC supply model and Bill and Hubert are more equipped to answer those questions. I am not knowledgable about secondary supply sources or how, other than using the editor, a player could extend the number of supply centers, so I answered in the context of the present, developing new supply model.

I've been thinking I may have caused some misunderstanding by using the "weakest link" concept when probably it is better represented by the "strongest link" concept. In this logistical scheme understand that primary and secondary "capital status" supply sources do not erode automatically but are only diminished by enemy actions. Cut off primary and secondary sources not linked/unconnected erode per turn automatically. Understand that cut off means from the "net" and unlinked means from another supply source. Take Hubert's example of Algeria/Tunisia where only two sources exist, one is a secondary with capital status and the other a seaport(also a secondary), with or without an adjacent town/city, they all have 5 supply maximum and are linked to each other and connected to the "net". If through enemy action they are reduced they will recover automatically 1 per turn as long as they are connected to the net. If they are cut off, but remain linked they support each other by one recovering to the status of the stronger's supply level. For example: port bombed down to 3, cs source remains 5, port recovers 1 per turn to 5, no net connection needed. If the cs source was also reduced, say to 4, then the port can only recover to max 4. The cs source can recover, and ultimately bring the port back(both to max 5) but the cs source has to be connected back to the net for that to occur, 1 per turn. If the primary or secondary supply source, ie. port/town/city is isolated(blockaded/surrounded), no link, no net connection, no "cs" status, it will erode(automatically) 1 supply per turn, no recovery until communications(link or connection) are re-established with a higher/stronger supply source. Next I'll explain the "primary" source relevance of link/connection supply 10 level where a more intricate infrastructure is set up by the campaign designer, but you see how the designer can manipulate the supply model to be exceedingly difficult for an enemy to reduce through both "inter"(net connection) and "intra"(internal supply link) structure.

Everyone, imagine that the SC "logistical net" is concentric, like one inside another. You have the overall Allied or Axis net and then the smaller individual countries' "nets" reside inside the larger net, just like we have individual country economies inside the "World" economy, but in SC, there are two worlds, Axis and Allied. I guess there could be three or more, but we're all dependent upon trade. There is autarky to a degree, however it is less efficient, ie 5 supply for smaller economies, but for the majors we need to have 10 to realize their efficiency level as a large economy.

Glabro, the players have a mechanism to expand the supply source by using HQs. When everyone is comfortable with our supply scenario we can talk about the consequences of not being connected to the "net" and how HQs are used as mobile extenders of the "net". Then there will be discussions of how the net erodes automatically and at the hands of enemy actions.

OK Hubert, to address your "Results/potential problems" 1.Verdun surrounded: If designated as secondary with "capital status"(cs) then it stands on its own at 5 supply. 2. Verdun connected to Paris by rail = 8 supply, if Paris >=8. If all Verdun connections are < 5 then Verdun is 5 if cs, or if not cs, Verdun can be at the highest supply of the other connections. 3. Algiers & Tunis are cut off....doesn't matter they are 5 supply, they have cs. 4. Caen occupied by Allied invasion starts the 1 supply recovery per turn if connected(to the rest of the Allied net), the Allied HQ is the supply source of 5 until Caen recovers to 1 and then the HQ has 8 supply(as currently). 5. Gibraltar & Malta, same as Algeria/Tunisia, to start with cs, so at 5, stand on their own. 6. Egypt, same as the answer for the above, "cs" they have 5. In other words, a "capital status" designated "secondary" is the heart of each individual countries' supply net, has supply 5. Capital status for a "primary" is 10 supply, CS allows for them to "stand on their own", no need for a connection, but if they have none they cannot recover 1 supply per turn. The recovery process depends on the "net" connection, this will be a new SC rule.

Yes, Hubert, your right, I'm trying to incorporate most of the principles of supply that you've already developed and again if the minor capitals are excluded then yes it pretty much leaves things as they are. I'm trying to develop this logistical net concept based on reality where there is usually a central organizing body(the capital), a government, to coordinate the economic infrastructure of a country. Since in SC when the capital falls the country usually surrenders, I want the capital to be able to stand on its own as a last bastion of the society, but it(the capital) also is an intricate part of the infrastructure of distribution. In the case of a small(minor) country, "the net", will not be so large that an enemy major will be able to erode all the supply centers(secondaries), but as the major goes about that attrition it will have to carve up and isolate the secondaries from one another or they will continue to mutually support each other, ie "the weakest link". For a major country being conquered it will be more difficult as the primaries are more numerous, mutually supporting, and have a better infrastructure(10 supply), but the same strategy of carving up the supply centers will work, either singly or in small groups. And yes, eventually, they(supply centers) both primaries and secondaries will go to 0 supply as the SC inherent ability to recover 1 per turn is dependent upon that mutual support mechanism of being connected. Does that explain it to you in more detail? Obviously this is a work in progress as I'm trying to use my SC knowledge to develop this viable "communication, logistical, net" in a most considerate scheme with the present system. Over the years, as SC has become more complicated and I'm a little older, it takes a lot of contemplation to examine all the possibilities incorporating such procedures into the system. Obviously there can be many drawbacks and unintended consequences so every avenue has to be examined. I'm glad we are addressing it, the entire community is needed for this. It represents the foundation of SC. I'll get back to you about the application of this system with your previous post. I need to think about it some more and I'm at work with multiple distractions.

Everyone, think about this sentence, "No down linked primary or secondary can have more supply than its weakest link". Add to that, "other than the capital". Do you see how this works to simulate a blockade or an area supply denial? Imagine one or more "primary" or "secondary" linked to a major/minor capital that can stand on its own 10 / 5 supply. If you have a minor capital at 5, linked to a town/port it also is at 5, from either the capital link or a sea link to a friendly major. Cut off the sea link(blockade) its still at 5, but if you bomb the capital down to a lower supply it becomes the weakest and only link, then the town/port also goes to what the capital's supply is, ie. the weakest link. Think of a set of primaries connected by rail and one is the major capital, all are at 10 supply. If you reduce the capital to something less than 10 supply but not the other two, they remained linked with 10 because they provide an alternative supply support to each other not depending upon the capital. But if the capital and all other primaries are reduced to something less than 10 and there is no alternative link to something higher for the remaining untouched primary, it goes to the supply level of all the other reduced primaries as it can't stand on its own. What this simulates is the dependency of area resource interaction of people, factories, natural minerals, etc to produce goods and services and distribute them.

I like it Bill, real close to what I'm thinking, just one problem comes to mind. A unit in a resource with an HQ, like in Burma, where it rains(limited air attacks), cut off and being attacked by enemy units which can't get good supply because of the terrain, even with HQs supporting, can never reduce the defending units as they keep reinforcing. This is solved if eventually the resource goes to 0, no supply. So for Hubert's "PROPOSAL", the answer is yes....eventually. I think what we're all talking about here is a supply net, that's connected, meaning continuous friendly tiles, whether land or sea, uninterrupted by enemy ZoCs. Where does it begin? For majors, in the home country a group of linked resources, designated "primary" at 10 supply. For minors, the capital city and ports/towns that are linked to a friendly major, the minor capital being able to stand on its own at 5 supply and designated "secondary"(this could include fortresses). How does the net radiate? Rail links provide 8 supply to secondaries, roads and clear tiles(movement cost 1) and sea transmit 5 supply. No down linked primary or secondary can have more supply than its weakest link. What happens when a primary or secondary is cut off? Immediately, the supply levels goes to 4 and is subject to attrition until the link is re-established. Combat and/or turns cause attrition and eventually if the supply link remains closed, supply = 0.

On board with solution 6). Roads and rails are obviously part of the supply net, with rails being more effective, generally. I would think, with reference to the SC scale, that clear(movement cost =1) tiles could be thought of as having a secondary path for relay also, although unseen as a map depiction. Not trying to complicate, just trying to encapsulate all deductions for relay aspects.

Hubert, the biggest issue with the HQ minimum 5 is that if it occupies a cutoff, bombed down town/city/port(which always recovers 1 per turn) the HQ has a minimum supply of 8, enabling reinforcing of cut off units to full strength, even over strength with elite reinforcements. How real is that? You mentioned the ZoC connection, both land and sea, the last unit to pass through maintains that connection until an unfriendly exerts its control(passing through) and then the forward friendlies are cutoff. Here's the suggestion: HQs establishing a beachhead and are connected by sea with friendly ZoCs to a friendly port maintain their 5, representing continuous sealift transport of supplies. Don't forget many landing type vessels can provide supply across the beaches, LSTs, LCTs, etc. This could be tied to amphib teched in some manner. For land situations where units are cutoff with HQ in the vicinity of a supply source, ie. the "Minsk" pocket, the supply resource has to become 0 or we get the HQ bonus to 8. At resource = 0, HQ supply is immediately 5 and now becomes subjected to degradation, 2 has been mentioned. I believe because SC turns are varied in length it should be up to the designer (I know...complications) to set the erosion level of supply per turn.......and what about enemy bombing? Further, obviously there should be a mechanism for air supply as it was, again subject to the designer, but it could work sort of like the "recon" mission does. For example, a bomber within range can drop supplies at 1 per mission to the HQ who coordinates the distribution to the combat units in the pocket thereby providing longevity to the cutoff units, at least for awhile, subject to interception just like the sea mission. The main conclusion here is to have some device where cutoff units that remain cutoff, even with an HQ, can eventually be attrited to surrendering, ie exterminated.

Exactly how you get 3 FJs for Germany for conducting Sealion or other operations as the opportunity presents itself.:cool: Did I mention I love Paratroops and Special Forces! We're coming to get YOU!

I think the kicker here is the definition of supply source. A resource is different from a relaying source(linked HQ) as Bill stated above. The resource is part of the infrastructure, a linking HQ is a temporary(mobile) supply dump and therefor needs a relayed supply from a resource(1 -5) or a linked HQ>=5 to realize a supply of 8 to be transfered to combat units in the field. HQs, in the essence of providing supply, represent an extension of the logistical system and not a permanent part of the infrastructure like ports and towns/cities do. In wartime, temporary supply dumps are set up in the proximity of front line units, the base dumps feed the smaller, vicinity dumps and obviously don't possess the resources of distribution a more permanent location can offer, hence the inefficiency. Works for me!

If the supply relayed drops below 1, then you'll only get 5 from any HQ, essentially it is out of supply. For an 8 supply, the relayed value to the HQ occupying tile has to be 1 or above(counting terrain effects), if the relayed supply value is 8 or more to the HQ tile then you'll get 10. This is where it really helps to use HQs in a chain that doesn't drop below 1 supply. I saw another thread somewhere asking about using an HQ networked supply chain. You can check this by finding a 10 supply source and moving multiple HQs(use at least 3) into its proximity(make sure there are no other supply sources in range). Now move the HQs in unison to varying movement costs away from each other, select the "S" key and observe the supply value overlay.

Not quite as far a long as you guys, but finally seeing some Chinese casualties after having taken some since the start, so perhaps this Chinese situation isn't as bad as I thought.

Hey Al, we're about 5 turns in and I'm noticing that Japanese Fighters have a 1 de-entrenchment value, yet Jap TAC is 0. Did you design it this way, and if so, what was your reasoning?

You know what? We need that switch unit feature for any occupied tile that a unit can move to in its turn, including force march distances. Let's face the fact that it just simulates the operational movement of one force pulling out and another one moving in, in the time frame of a SC turn.

Finally JDF2, finally! You endeavored to persevere and concluded with the best idea! Congratulations and HAPPY NEW YEAR, everybody...toot!...toot! The tenth year of SC.:eek: Hubert, can you tell us what you have in mind for the next decade?

Nice feature Bill, you and Hubert are to be commended. You know the more multi-roles units can play the less you need of them, the upgrades are a good way to design in those functions. Take a look UoC's specialists steps.

Take my advice with a grain of salt, Bill! I might be a double agent!

abukede left you in humbling circumstances Bill, CH will make toast out of the Italians in Africa, there's only one thing to do. Pull back to Tripoli and pack the Italians around an HQ there, UK will have to extend itself to get to you. You'll buy some time and get the X Fliegerkorps into Sicily(supported) for the Malta assault. Any RN will get hammered if they try to intervene, tech up your TAC with NW, and by the way, we ought to have a naval upgrade for Bombers, Ju88 & He 111 were very good against naval targets. You put those nasty naval teched bombers with double strike in the mix and your opponent will be casting a glaring eye at anti-air upgrades. And don't forget about those Italian subs!:cool: