SeaMonkey

On its way, guys. Anyone interested in the prologue to this campaign? Remember the thread that incited this campaign was posted in the SC2 forum(Canadian MPP, 2nd page), that should give you some orientation of the "what if" world situation it originates in. [ February 05, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

On its way, Curry...Good Luck!

hi Curry, I'm at work currently, but will send you the file tonight when I get home. Unfortunately for a human Axis player this scenario is a "walk in the park" against the best SC allied player there is, of course unless he is a beginner. Then again there are the optional settings that could perhaps even the playing field. What I'm saying is that it was specifically designed to be a challenge for a veteran Allied SC player against the AI, and that it is or so it seems to me. Kind of funny so far that no one has jumped back into this thread claiming they have won. Oh well it is still early and I have moved on to stahlwolf's MidEurope Pact until I get further feedback. If this scenario is popular enough, I will release its "read.me" orientation file and for anyone needing some helpful hints, I will divulge the ambiguous instructions for one of the strategies that allowed me to win without being a spoiler. Of course I'm hoping that many successful strategies will be invented by our veteran corps of players.

He...He ...he!! Do I detect a slight sour grapes syndrome CT? Maybe you should try the more "girly man" settings like "beginner" or "novice".

JJ, I should be thanking you. It was your inspiration and some of the AI hints from "UK Fallen" as well as stahlwolf's idea to create a custom with the AI considered. I had not given it any thought before as I was always wrapped up in H to H games. Once I got started and entered into the testing, the results were even more intriguing as I observed the AI moves with FoW off. It was just a matter of trying every conceivable strategy and then figuring an AI deployment to counter them and giving it the tools to do so. Now I know there is no way I could have tested every single approach to beat the AI, so when some of these expert SC players can figure it out, it will be time for some new modifications and we will all have to put our thinking caps on once again. Already from my win there are a couple of items on the "tweak" list. Hope you enjoy it and perhaps it will help you out with cabin fever during one of those Northeastern winter storms. [ February 05, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

But I did CT, I did beat the AI. It just took me 5 times. Just for that, I'm going to send you an extra special CT version with a little helping of South Texas picante sauce....you know....the kind with the Habenero peppers in it. One way or another, tomorrow, Mr. CT will have a case of the "red" ass.

Where are you Terif? What? Your not afraid of a little SC AI....are ya? How about it Mr. Hot Shot...aka Rambo? Come on, where are all you "bad ass" SC players?...."Cluck"..."Cluck"...."Cluck"

Okay Qyusson, campaign on the way, found your email address in profiles. Sorry JP yours wasn't posted... anyone else..I'll be on line for awhile. Better think twice about starting this scenario if you have to work tomorrow, not for the feint of heart.

Heck I don't mind posting it somewhere for download, just not sure where. If you email me at bradtap@aol.com, I'll be more than happy to send you a copy, be forwarned, this ain't easy.

Anyone wishing to square off against a really competent Axis AI needs to try this scenario. Its a real nail biter, one of those that you keep telling yourself just one more turn and then I'll quit. I designed this scenario with all the idiosyncracies of SC's AI in mind, with excellent input from JJ and ideas from stahlwolf. On the intermediate setting, +1 experience, it took me 5 times to finally get "Europe awakens to rebuild the ashes of war" and that was Nov. 13, 1945 with a +197 rating. This damn thing had me thinking what i could do, when i laid down at night to go to sleep, when I was eating, when I was driving to work, how in the hell was I going to win? Now I know some of you experts out there are saying "yeah sure", this is the SC AI, totally incompetent, okay for you, try the expert setting, +2 experience, and feel like a stepchild. Yeah, I know, this is SC and its way long in the tooth, but I have to say this scenario made me feel like the days I first started playing, kept shaking my head in frustration "this is totally impossible to win". So if you need something to fill those long cold snowy, rainy, miserable winter days with no surf, try "Return of the Allies", and if you can beat it...like I just did,.. finally, ...then I'll make it tougher. Yeah right!!! your gonna win your first time out...dream on and put your shoulder pads on, come to think of it, strap your kneepads on to, cause your not worthy of this SC AI. [ February 01, 2005, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

stahlwolf, I'll get around to them eventually, but I'm currently tweaking "Return of the Allies". Did you get the scenario...have you tried it yet?

stahlwolf, I'll get around to them eventually, but I'm currently tweaking "Return of the Allies". Did you get the scenario...have you tried it yet?

You are right Edwin about the AI predictability. That has convinced me that an Axis human player will not be able to get a decent game from an Allied AI. Not so for the reverse situation though. The Axis AI can be very formidable in a custom campaign designed to take advantage of its nuances, even for us so called veterans.

Good summation JJ, I agree with all preliminarily, I'm sure others will help tweak it, if need be. I have not been able to test your custom yet, but look forward to it as Axis player. Have been testing my own, "Return of the Allies" as a compliment to yours from the Allied side. I am obsessed with a competent, no .....a difficult AI for the Axis side, so the human Allied player has a really rough time. The normal settings will be +1 and +1 for Axis. If players need it easier then they make the settings less, 0 & 0 or +1-0, going to +2-+2 for players wanting a greater challenge, virtually impossible.

"You're always too hard on yourself." JJ, seems we are "Birds of a Feather" Always aspiring to greater heights, Thanks for the consideration, and to you to Shaka.

I have to agree with your reasoning, the facts seem to discount my viewpoint. Just goes to show you how easily perspectives can be skewed by rhetoric and propaganda, and just plain bad memory. I usually take a common sense approach to the presentation of the "facts" and yours seemingly makes sense and has rattled out some old recollections of these past events. Thanks for the clarification.

Edwin, How would this fit in with German HQs random application of that favorite "No Retreat" order that Hitler seemed to throw around indescriminately?

JJ correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this China recognition(Chiang Kai'chek)and subsequent pull out coupled with the French Indochina and Dutch East Indies pullback the main sticking point. Didn't the Japanese want it all as well as the strategic material(oil and steel) exports from the USA as a condition of cooperation. I will agree that the American public, for the most part, didn't care enough to go to war. Definitely a political situation with neither side making any real compromises. I think the general public weighed in on the side of the Chinese because of the war atrocities widely reported at Nanking among others of lesser press. One other point, didn't the Japanese originally explain their invasion of China(Manchuria) as a need for a buffer from USSR communistic expansion? Not saying that this "what if" is inconceivable, just throwing out some misgivings on my part,... perhaps miss conceptions of my infantile dementia and tightroping that thread of hypocrisy that I am susceptible to. [ January 26, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

Okay Shaka and JJ, I can see a Pacific co-prosperity alliance between US and Japan among the other Asian players.......but.....you know there is a but....how is this China thing resolved between the two?

WS just open up the editor, load one("file".."open") of the default campaigns, save as whatever designation you wish and play around, you'll get the hang of it.

Sorry Curry, this is for SC2, but you did prompt some good "what if" conjecture. JJ...got it, set it up and am doing a couple of turns hotseat to get a feel...looks interesting. Now is this for H to H or solitaire....which side? I know you mentioned that the human player could be Axis, as long as you abide by house rules. I've started "Return of the Allies" campaign to be played by a Human Allied player against Axis AI, because of the reasons you stated of the AI incompetency. To keep UK producing/reinforcing I have a UK entrenched(4) 10 strength corps, experience 4 in Manchester. The AI is attacking it but without success so it allows for CW playability. My only house rule is that the UK cannot build or operate any units to the British Isles until an invasion has captured both London and Manchester. Here's the premise of the scenario. Hitler has convinced Stalin that they need to prosecute a simultaneous invasion of Iraq(Allied owned) and Turkey(neutral). Stalins primary responsibility is to attack Iraq and make diversionary raids into eastern Turkey(Erzurum) and has deployed a sizeable army group to the area(Caucasus). The main Turkish attack will be made by German and Hungarian forces on Istanbul crossing the Bosporus straits and capturing Ankara, Operation Rayah Freedom. All is ready in early May 1942 for the two pronged dagger into Muslim lands, but instead just before the jump off date, Hitler directs the treacherous surprise attack of the Soviet Union...you can never trust a despot. All of Europe is Axis except the neutrals, Sweden, Switzerland, Vichy France and Finland. The Allies retain a presence in Egypt and Iraq. UK/Canadian forces, strong but meager, have reorganized in Canada after the UK capitulation in October 1940. Pearl Harbor has brought the USA to the side of the Commonwealth, but only cadres of the gigantic future force the US will field have been organized.

Alrighty then! Shall we proceed? Here's where I'm going; A what if, probably a human as the Allies against the Axis AI. UK has surrendered, British Isles occupied. Start time? Barbarossa or before...perhaps afterward? I think we all agree that Germany would have led the assault on the USSR eventually...when...given the invasion of UK? Now some questions 1. Given the occupation of UK, would Germany have pursued Uboats or an inclination towards a surface navy or a mix? 2. Would we have seen research into SBs or the historical path of rocket developments by Germany and what about LR tech.? 3. Given the pursuit of Q#1 or 2, what would the consequence be for Barbarossa? 4. Will the SC editor allow us to accumulate MPPs for UK application in Africa/Canada/Mideast when UK has surrendered? Should we just color in UK as owned by Germany or apply surrender? The idea is to keep the UK afloat with the Commonwealth, rather than make all USA administered. 5. USA will start at war, probably with level 5 IT, depending on start date what should the USA force OOB look like? 6. What naval and ground forces would have logically escaped the German invasion other than what is in Africa/Mideast? 7. Would Spain or Turkey have joined the Axis at this point, what's the status of Gibraltar, Malta? 8. Does Sweden and Switzerland dare to remain neutral? My preliminary thoughts on USA OOB are lots of units at strength 1 and 3 HQs, Bradley, Patton and Eisenhower to represent a build up if we have to go USA administered? How many tech chits to distribute? Anyone interested?

I'll agree in the context of an Allied re-entry of the European theatre, by no means a foregone conclusion, especially if it were in the British Isles. As far as the summation of factors leading to the conclusion of Germany as the greatest threat, I believe it was Einstein and his group(for one example) that warned of the potential developing catastrophic condition for the world that Germany represented. The world includes the 48, although not so imminent as the European theatre. Again I'm not so sure that a USA return to the European theatre would have originated in the British Isles, but more likely in the African/Mideast sectors developing to more easily invaded areas of southern Europe. As far as the Canadians contribution to the return, I'm sure the USA led force would have greatly appreciated their involvement as well as the other allies, but to assume they had any chance on their own even with CW help doesn't make for a viable scenario or discussion. I had assumed this discussion had evolved beyond that missconception, although I highly believe that their resolve would have not been in anyway diminished, just unrealistic.

Once again Michael I will differ with your opinion, simply it was basic recognition of the greatest threat.

Michael, I must digress, the war in the Pacific didn't hang on those little intangibles, it was a foregone conclusion. I believe Yamamoto himself reflected on that basic fact.