Biltong

You can put me on the list so long Apache. I'm curious to see what happens towards the end of the war. BTW: While you're working through your sources looking at vehicles, won't you pass on any weather modifiers for 42. I'm especialy keen to find out exactly when the Jan/Feb/March? cold came to an end; When the slush from the thaw started and dried out; When the new rain/mud season started; When the first real cold of Oct?/Nov/Dec 42 started (say: minus 10 degrees) and when the first blizzrds of Nov/Dec 42 started. I know it's like asking the length of a piece of string, but any data is welcome. Anybody else who might have something re the above - pls post or mail me. Thanx Biltong [ January 08, 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Dis 'n plesier out Maat That reads: "It's a pleasure old friend" [ January 08, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Spot on & clarified with a note on the Favor Sheet in the next 3 minutes

Kevin (Dumrox) mailed me the following: Biltong, I just started using BCR this week. Congrats on the work you've done so far. Pleasure Kevin In the rules, Note 3 - After Replacement Experience Calculation, you give the following formula: (Men left x 2 x Experience After Battle*) + (Replacements x Experience**) divided by (total men in unit x 2) = After Replacement Experience* for unit. I can see that by multiplying the Men left by 2 you are emphasizing the experience of the survivors more than the replacements. In fact, your are saying it is twice as important. I agree with your reasoning. I think this formula could be made simpler if it appears as follows: (Men left x Experience After Battle*) + (Replacements x Experience** / 1.25) divided by (total men in unit) = After Replacement Experience* for unit. This formula gives the same results, it just requires a bit less math and may be easier to understand. In effect, you are saying that replacement experience is only 1/2 as important as the experience of the unit survivors. Great - well picked up!! And implemented immediately BTW - after some more testing recently I've settled on 1.25 instead of 2. '2' created some extreme results when the replacements are vet and there are a lot of replacements. E.g.: A 10 man Regular squad receiving 9 Vet (25 exp) replacements would only have a new exp of 12! With 1.25 they would get a more realistic 20. If you wanted to build on this approach, you could create a new rolled for parameter, "Replacement Cohesiveness %", reflecting how smoothly the replacements are integrated into the existing units. The experience formula would look like this (Men left x Experience After Battle*) + (Replacements x Experience** x Replacement Cohesiveness %) divided by (total men in unit) = After Replacement Experience* for unit. In your examples above, the Replacement Cohesiveness % is 50%. Perhaps this % could range from 50% to 90 or even 100% based on a die roll. High Cohesiveness % could be explained as the return of earlier casualties to the front, soldiers who are already familiar with the units they are being integrated into. Good idea... it will have to fall under expansions/mods though... I'm trying to keep BCR reasonably simple... Some newbies are already put off by BCR's complexity. However - some of the guys will want to use this idea so I'll post it on the board. Any more ideas? Biltong

Sitting in shorts and sweating like a tank gunner under fire Yep: Battle Type modifiers 1.4x 1.7x etc... I nearly used your adaptation until SuperS reminded me about what's in store for us come winter... I think we're going to need the 'easy' ride through the summer to learn/prepare and get our little Battle Group up to some sort of standard before we get slaughtered. Just got my arse handed to me because I thought the 'stupid AI' would halt it's arty barrage once most of my men left the area (like it 'always' does) - so much for the 'easy ride'. I wonder how many guys would be interested in playing a Russian version? As the rules stand now it will be very easy to modify... Anyone with a couple of good books and a bit of time should be able to do it quite fast. I'm starting on 42 straight after the final version 2 is released... another 4 weeks? - So I don't think I'll have time. But as always: anyone's welcome to change/adapt/modify BCR to your hearts content In fact I wish someone would do it... I for one would definitely start a parallel campaign and try it out. Charging into Berlin with Vets against Conscripts must be great fun Biltong

New note at bottom of Battle Group Sheet :cool: Note 7: Tanks are all Armor found in the Allied Armor category in the Unit Editor of the Scenario Editor. Light Armor are all armored vehicles such as Half Tracks; Armored Cars etc found in the Allied Vehicles category. I'm jealous... I haven't even seen a single Rusky tank yet - just those bloody guns. Seeing my arse horribly at the moment with one of my own maps Didn't give myself enough time and all my guys were exhausted when they were caught by a never ending arty barrage... Third of my guys killed/panicked/routed... and the worst open stretch to the objective still ahead That's the problem with these electronic maps - you can't tear them up! :mad: Biltong

A player e-mails me: “One question that keeps bothering me. In the first battle, Note 4, the player is given a specific set of units. Since the idea is to follow your units through the war, I don't understand the purpose of rules 18 - 25. Why would I generate a whole new force when I should be carrying my previous force from battle to battle? Especially since they could go from German to Hungarian or from Armor to Combined arms.” You need those parameters to roll up the Task Force that supports your Battle Group. See 47 - Generate Task Force. The Task Force changes from battle to battle. Note 15 - Historical Accuracy explains: "Task Force: This did happen, but not with the frequency employed here. The reason for having a Task Force supporting your Battle Group during every battle is to enable the player to experience the wide variety of units and weapons offered by CMBB. Both Task Force and Attached Units provide variety in units and also in the size of battle, else the player would have been stuck with small battles and the same units throughout the whole campaign." Hope this helps Biltong

Good idea, Apache. I'm sure a platoon of tanks are more historically correct as well... Only reason I chose a variety, is to give the players opportunity to play with a number of tanks, but your rules does the same. Good work. Biltong

Tried it with a pre-made map and it work's great. This solves the flag placement problem as well. However, it will fall under the Expansion class - newbies might be frightened off by the extra rules/instructions & downloads. I'll make a note to include instruction in the Map Expansion Pack (somewhere down the line). Yikes - forgot how bad it was. Sorry Apache - your Battle Type modifier idea will have to remain as is or we'll all be dead before December. 200 points of Favor and you and your company will be clasified 'night blind'.

Damn!! Pity - Thanx wwb

SuperS ...You can use pre-designed maps, if you do you don't have to worry about flags and dimensions, but you have to add your Battle Group again and change the exp. level and so on. What about the Allied force? Had a look, but I can't see a way to auto generate them in the SE? If I can find the time, I'll write something up... It will be horrible, but you asked for it! what the hell... as long as it gives the guys a general idea how to do it... they're all very bright and can work out the finer details themselves - just like BCR ...Not sure what you ment by "a regular player should get at least 3 or 4 exp points per battle", even with these new rules I don't think every squad will get +3 exp per battle. But that's a good thing, I think. Not every squad! That will be a ballsup! I was talking about the whole Battlegroup :eek: ... I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one... I never agree to disagree :confused: ...if you had horrendous losses for, say, 3 battles in a row you get send home for a month to recuperate/refit etc? Just to help the guys past General Winter… ...That sounds like a good idea. Maybe something that would have happened in the real thing too? To a lucky few... The rest had to stick it out...The Axis was in such big scheize with all the counter offensives/supply & movement problems etc... I think hardly any divisions were pulled out during the winter... except if they've been decimated... So: If it's winter & you have been 'decimated' (suffered 50%+ losses) 3 times in a row - do Normal Replacements using Green replacements and add 1 Month to your previous date. You also lose all Attached Units... Winter will be hell! We'll get to love the summers!!

Had a look at this... Looks good - Players should give it a whirl - will add another dimension to BCR. Well done Apache!!

When creating scenarios or maps you have the option to set Dynamic Flags so that the senior CO on the Attacking side is able to choose which Flag is real – the rest of the flags are Bogus. This does not seem to work when you create the map and later import the map into a QB. Tried both Russian and Axis side. In both cases it defaulted back to ‘Automatic’ Dynamic Flags. Searched, but found nada… Anyone have an explanation or is it a bug? Biltong

When creating scenarios or maps you have the option to set Dynamic Flags so that the senior CO on the Attacking side is able to choose which Flag is real – the rest of the flags are Bogus. This does not seem to work when you create the map and later import the map into a QB. Tried both Russian and Axis side. In both cases it defaulted back to ‘Automatic’ Dynamic Flags. Searched, but found nada… Anyone have an explanation or is it a bug? Biltong

Good to hear Since you've got the rules going you might want to try and use the Map expansion pack. Download the Excel sheet with all the map data here: SuperSulo's Site or here Scooby's Site You'll be able to play the whole of BCR on custom made maps. In other words: a massive Operation covering the whole CMBB theatre of operations from 41 to 45. HOW Depending on Year, Size, Trees; Hills; Battle & Map Type etc., you will simply download the relevant Map on the List. When you generate the Real Battle and you come to the 3rd (Map Type) screen of the QB generator you use the ‘Import Map’ option to load the map file... and that is that! Cary on as per normal with the BCR – Buy your force and play the battle... Voila!! Simple as that :cool: No more weird or stupid flag positions; villages or towns that look thrown together or maps that all look the same etc. Besides their beauty, variety and realism, these maps have been designed specifically for BCR and each one has been fine tuned for a specific battle type. They will add a lot to your enjoyment. There's already over 60 of them!! Enjoy Biltong

Superulo Ahh, the joy of using the scenario editor for your campaign... you really should try it, it's not that much more work. I can’t remember the downside… Imagine one would be deciding on number & placement of flags – what else? No way of using pre-designed maps – is there? Apache has just typed up his Major Battle Rules… How about posting a summary re how to do it; what the downside/upside is etc... I’m sure there will be other guys interested? Sharpshooters +6 kills... they only get 10 shots. Maybe should be +4 kills or something. I don't know how effective they are though, haven't been assigned any yet. Hmmm – you’re right – I’ve never had 6 kills with a shooter yet. 4 it is. See rest below. Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills VERY difficult getting 10+ kills with a 50mm mortar. "Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills" You ment "larger than 40mm" in the last line there, right? I don't know about the 30+ kills, I seems to "always" get 30+ with my 75mm PzIVE, and not very often with the 50mm PzIIIG. Maybe it should be: "Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 50mm 25+ kills Armored vehicles with guns larger than 50mm 35+ kills" Hmm but then the 20mm'ers gets the short stick, no way they can get 25 kills... Perhaps there should be 3 categories for the panzers, just like for guns... 15+/25+/35+ ? Good feedback SuperS… Had a look at the points again – decided that a regular player should get at least 3 or 4 exp points per battle, so I made it a bit easier overall. Killing Exp gain 1 extra exp point for: CO's 5+ inf kills Squads 12+ inf kills Tank hunter & Flame Thrower teams 5+ inf kills Sharpshooters 4+ inf kills LMG's 7+ inf kills HMG's 14+ inf kills Mortars 50mm 5+ inf kills Mortars 81mm 15+ inf kills Guns smaller than 40mm 8+ inf kills Guns from and including 40mm up to and including 74mm as well as 37mm flak & 20mm quad flak 15+ inf kills Guns greater than 74mm 30+ inf kills Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 35mm 10+ inf kills Armored vehicles with armament from and including 35mm up to and including 50mm as well as all flak vehicles and flammpanzers 20+ inf kills. Armored vehicles with armament larger than 50mm 30+ inf kills Arty spotters – nada. Better? SuperS “But it isn't new guys, it's 10 regular soldiers of the German Army. Maybe their old company was decimated and the remains were shifted around as replacements. Maybe they all know each other and are a well knitted fighting machine?” Sure that is possible, but how often did that happen? I think most of the time the replacements would’ve dribbled in, in singles or two’s. Once in a while, maybe, 2 guys that knew each other. A whole squad sent somewhere as replacements? Not impossible, but I think unlikely. As for 10 regulars/vets from different units gelling fast… think of any team sport (soccer/football/rugby/baseball – whatever) How long does it take before a team gets it together… sorts out who does what; what tactics to use when etc. etc. etc…. I’m a rugby fan and if a club buys a bunch of top guys it doesn’t mean ****…. It will still take them many months to get it together (if ever). Quite often a new team of hotshots will get hammered by a crappy little team that have played together for a long time. I think a Squad where you’re playing for life is a bit more complex than most team sports. All though: the motivation is better than just money.. SuperS & Andy “I'm worried about the winter... There are some really horrifying modifiers there.” “….Even a good player doesn't have much chance of keeping a strong force with that kind of attrition.” I’m also worried about the winter… I can just imagine the moaning & bitching that’s going to come streaming in Every winter 41/42/43/44 is going to be horrible… My concern is that players might just give up… Just thought of something…. Maybe I should bring in an escape rule where, if you had horrendous losses for, say, 3 battles in a row you get send home for a month to recuperate/refit etc? Just to help the guys past General Winter… Agua, The Scalpel is busy with a ‘Walk Through’ for first time players and right at the top he has a glossary of terms. There’s no release date as yet, but it should be sometime in the next 4 to 6 weeks or so…. It’s a major job he’s undertaken and being The Scalpel it will have to be near perfect.

Or - does anyone know how I can make a PDF set for H-Buff? Scooby normally does this, but he's away till the 1st (I think).</font>

Apache: Is there a need for a glossary of terms in the Intro Doc and/or Rules, esp for things like Battle Group, Task Force and Attached Units etc.? Good idea – will pass it on to the Scalpel Is it worth pointing out that the primary purpose of 'Experience' is to determine the 'Quality' setting of the Battle Group, Attached Units and Task Force AND that for the Battle Group and Attached, purchase quality is determined by the Battle Group Sheet at the end of each battle. Therefore, only Task Force quality is determined using the rule (56?)? Listed – to be checked and clarified – well picked up! Info sheet error (p5) - Example refers to selecting Dawn where Dusk has been rolled up? Presumably Dawn needs to change? Info Sheet? P5? Fixed Info sheet (p1) - Need to change from 'from Green, hopefully to Crack.....' to 'from Regular...........' Fixed Is it worth suggesting that as players get better and better and work themselves up the player rating list (e.g. green - elite), they may wish to look at upping the computer experience to 2 and then 3 etc. and start of as regular or even green again? Lets first see if someone can finish the whole campaign (41 > 45) as an Elite Player When players select force mix (e.g. Infantry only) should they restrict purchases to those types of unit? E.g. should there be ANY armor in an infantry only force type? You have a great chance for Inf only battles for the first couple of months… I thought it better to give players a chance (reduced by: “Axis Force Mix: Infantry -3;”) of having armor since most players would get bored with inf only battles. Remember: you are in command of a Battle Group. Just for info - At the moment I am finding that applying the assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points ONLY is proving better … I like this! I’m also concerned that the modifiers make the rules too easy. I’ll list your suggestion. History Buff/Apache Replacement Formula revisited. This formula has been revised and revised a number of times. Max went to great lengths and devised a whole lot of formulas and spreadsheets with graphs to state his case. I played with various formulas/combinations for days on end. If you look at the last 2 pages? of the previous thread, you will see a detailed explanation of the why’s and wherefores. However - we might come to some sort of compromise - see below. Apache I just had a battle where some squads caused 8-10 infantry casualties and some caused 1-2. Problem I suppose is that squads are not ultimately purchased with separate quality settings. That said, I do think the company should have to perform to some degree and prove it, otherwise it may be tempting to hold them back and let AFVs and arty score the kills etc. Still not sure what's best. To be honest I would also like it. BUT the old problem: 4 years to go and Crack troops will kill the campaign faster than anything else you can think of. Lets put it this way: If you ever manage to get a Veteran Company you will truly be a great commander In real life this was also the case: With the crap replacements (esp. later) and the high casualties suffered in the East it was a miracle if you could get a whole company to be Veteran on average. A squad maybe yes, but a whole company – extremely difficult and unlikely. The bottom line: I cannot risk a player having his Company as Crack after X battles, becoming bored because the campaign is too easy and dropping out before the end of 41!! This campaign will be tough and will get tougher every year. If you want a vet or crack company – you will have to earn them the hard way! By keeping them alive! Can be done – but you better be f…ing good!! Now how do I get you guys off my back..? 1 extra exp point for: CO's 6+ kills Squads 15+ kills Tank hunter & Flame Thrower teams and Sharpshooters 6+ kills LMG's 10+ kills HMG's 20+ kills Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills Mortars equal or greater than 81mm 20+ kills Guns smaller than 40mm 10+ kills Guns from and including 40mm up to and including 80mm 20+ kills Guns greater than 80mm 40+ kills Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills What did I forget? On the Favour Sheet - Where we have the new boxes below Veh etc and -3x for example, would it be better to remove the dividing line between Veh and -3x and centre the -3x in the box? Say I lost 4 vehicles. The idea is: As I look through the map I tick what I find in the relevant boxes (in the space provided after the 'X'). Eg.: ‘-3 x 1 1 1 1’. I.e.: ‘–3 x 4’ and use the empty box below it to record the total: -12 Why do we use a multiplier of x2 when calculating experience? Sure it's in the threads/docs somewhere but can't find it. 2nd Thread – search on Andy – It was his invention that I bastardized It reduces the effect of the replacements (whether it be up or down). Long thread about the why somewhere in 2nd week of December? Do we need to stress to players that if they do not get casualties they merely fill in the 'Experience after battle' figure in the Experience after replacements' box? People may otherwise go and do the full equation, dividing the end figure by the 10 man squad x2 and find their experience plummeting. Perhaps include a no loss example in the note? My 1st instinct would be that they would deserve it :cool: OK I’ll be nice: listed. SuperSulo “I do think the exp. calc equation is wrong... See what happens if a whole reg (10 exp) squad got wiped out and get replaced with 10 new reg (10 exp) men: ((0 x 2 x 10) + (10 x 10)) / (10 x 2) = 5 I know, "can't buy a crack team" and all that, but this is beyond realism, imho. I use ((remaining men * 2) + new men) as the divider, that gives in the example above a new experence of 10.” Hmmm 5 is a bit low. My gut feel would be 6 or 7. Reason being 10 new guys will take some months to gell into a team that reflects their average exp: 10. As it is, I'm worried that the Axis have it too easy. A change here (in the player's favor) will have to be counter ballanced by a change somewhere else (in the Allied favor) e.g.: Apaches Assault/Attack/Probe modifier suggestion above. But there's one definite limit to any possible change(s): Replacements can never be allowed to be a sure way of upgrading crappy units! The bottom line must always be: Keep your men alive! Don’t get them killed!! Maybe someone can come up with a compromise formula? Something between the 'men left x 2' and the 'old straight replacement' formula? I'll trade it for Apache's suggestion re: " assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points only". “….in the next/current battle, allied "probe" at night, I have 0 pts taskforce, just my Battle Group with 180 pts attached units (an 88, 150mm inf gun and an ATR, not much use at night...) against 1680 pts partisans... That is well over a 2:1 ratio (without the useless guns), some "probe" eh! Maybe I should retreat and just take the defeat... We'll see” Zero Task Force?! How did that happen? Inf = 1; Vehicle & Armor both less than 5, but what about Arty/Air – which month are you in? BTW – You don’t always have to run: A tactic I’ve used with some success: Take & hold on to a small flag furthest away from the others with everything you have – When the Allies counter attack you might kill enough to gain a minor vic or better Biltong

May this year be slightly boring, but leave you a lot happier than the last one Happy New Year everybody Apache/H-B Going to the beach for the day - so I'll get to your suggestions t'night.... Lovely day here... 38.. 39... No wind or clouds... waves look good.... Thought you might want to know

On the list Apache

Howzit Capt' Yep could happen, except for one line at the bottom of Note 6 - Attached Units: "In an Emergency Reorganization (Note 2) these units must be used as replacements first." This spells death to the attached units... You can only 'keep' them if you don't have any casualties at all. And if that happens you'll be winning every battle and then the next rule kicks in: Note 12 - Player Experience: "If you win more than 6 battles in a row – increase your Player Experience by one notch." So - you can't keep on winning and you won't be able to keep them - sorry Biltong

Or - does anyone know how I can make a PDF set for H-Buff? Scooby normally does this, but he's away till the 1st (I think).

Ok - to hell with MOD - What about a GroB (short for Growling Bunny) - see here: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002941

Something else, Just finished XXXXXXX ME. I xxxxxxx raced to the flag and held it: 98% Total Vic. The AI/Allies never had a chance since I got there first. They kept on feeding men piecemeal into the killzone. I think when creating a ME map one must provide multiple flags and give the AI a fair chance to get to the majority of the flags first. With the Axis arriving soon thereafter, (moving fast). The AI will still only have a small portion of it's force in position - it tends to drag it's feet and stagger it's forces when moving forward and the resulting battle should still play like a ME. What do you guys think - anything else picked up while playing the maps.? BTW - never use a Green 81mm mortar FO at night - I repositioned the target 4 times - each time in sight of the FO... Each time the shells fell way off - up to a kilo away. Last barrage fell on my own men Stopped trying after that!

Hmmm - Yep - that could be it: "Fire and smoke and blood and brains everywhere Sir, I thought it was shot to hell, so I got out as fast as I could Sir..." Checked in the manual - there's a definite difference between KO (badly damaged)and Abandoned (can be repaired), so I'm keeping the Favor diff. Biltong