Skipper
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Posts posted by Skipper
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:
Is Nova Zemlaya etc part of the Novorossisk offensive in 1943? IIRC a very large Sov force tried to outflank the German line there, but I don't know what the result was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The bridgehead was secured, and thus german defensive lines were indeed outflanked, but it had to be held against heavy german attacks and soviets could not launch operations from it. Only 7 months later they manage to concentate forces to assault Novorossiysk both by sea landing AND from the bridgehead. The assault succeeded, german defences in Caucasus collapsed, orderly withdrawal was turned into hasty evacuation. If one is to believe Brezhnev, german situation after that became so desperate, that the last german convoy leaving the east coast of Black Sea had to round up locals and put them clearly visible on deck, so as not to be sunk.
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> I do not doubt that replacements got
> weapons from the fallen, too.
Heck, they even got uniforms from the fallen. There was a system of collecting uniforms of KIA and redistributing them. What is the point of controversy here is that they were not sent to assaults as unarmed formations.
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> Radios were uncommon in Russia - there
> might be a single radio for a tank platoon
> (especially in the early years).
Simply "in the early years", not "especially". In a sense that availability of radios drastically improved by 1943, to the degree that you couldnt call them "uncommon" anymore.
Even in 1941, lack of radios did not mean the total absence of radios.
What BTS should do, it seems, is to model FOs with field telephones and FOs with radios. There should be some sort of penalty for a wire connection, but I dont know what exactly.
By the way, having to direct artillery by a field telephone doesnt mean immobility. A forward observer following the advancing infantry would trail a wire behind him. Ie, he would be able to move for upto several hundred meters.
Finally, I fully agree with the opinion that CM engine cannot model strategic breakthroughs of prepared defences. This would be a task for at least a regiment. CM, for obvious manageability reasons, does not handle regiment-sized engagements. However, firewall tactics and other forms of preparatory artillery fires more complex than simple "shooting at map coordinates" were commonly used in battalion sized assaults.
[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]
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> Many of the tank crews had never driven a
> tank before, maybe only a couple of times.
> Excersises were indeed few and far
> between.
Which storyteller is that from?
> During Barbarossa the Russians lost a good
> portion of their old tanks. This lead the
> way for full production of the T-34 and Kv-
> 1 models.
The only problem being that during 1942 they did not build any KVs at all, and only a handful of T-34s. Instead they were busy building lowly T-60s, T-70s etc.
Overall, another ill-informed impression.
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How about "apparently directing the driver by feet worked faster, was more precise, and gave tank CO an ability to issue other commands by voice simultaneoiusly"?
[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]
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Okay, I will abstain from discussing various ugly stories from the recent past, but someone here should learn to read. By re-reading the whole thread for starters.
Skipper the Flame-retardant
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On regimental 76mm guns, I suspect CM engine must be tweaked to make their use in direct fire mode a more viable tactic than it is now. As it is, they are too slow to move, and too easy to KO with a well placed mortar round. As it was in RealLife , they were widely used in that mode and apparently survived a lot better than in CM.
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Tiger,
You may want to study the story of your granddads. As Straif said, there were lots of polish people taking part in the fight with nazis. If memory serves, these units were formed in 1942-43 and took part in some heavy fighting in Ukraine and then Poland. Some of them were 100% volunteers, others were given a choice to fight or to stay in detention.
Katyn - it did happen, too. As well as mass execution of soviet POWs by Poles in 1921 and many other ugly stories. An that was all just 50-70 years ago. Not that much.
And yes, I've read Rudel's book just recently. In my opinion, it is fisherman story from cover to cover. NB: "fisherman story" is not equal to "deliberate lie". It's just the size of the cautch is limited by the length of teller's hands. And yes, it usually makes for a great reading.
I have already mentioned Brezhnev's memoir which (if available in english) I highly recommend to anyone - great reading in the same genre!
I've read many accounts like this: "bombers, prep artillery strike, then infantry assault. Drunk submachine-gunners hosing our trenches with lead. We let them come close and then open up. Long bursts of our MG are making wide sweeps in the enemy lines. Decimated attackers withdraw. Two hours later the whole sequence is repeated. And so it continues until dusk." Guess, who are the attackers in these accounts? Germans.
On your "bad and good" point, I am trying to do exactly that - ie, begging you, guys, to make a distinction between hilarious myths and grim reality.
In short, I've never heard about hundreds of people ordered to assault german positions with "5 rifles per 15 men" ©. This would be completely out of this world.
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Afaik, Katyushas ARE what was called "operational level" here. Ie, they were operated in the following way: pull up on position, launch, run. Never "on call".
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> However, as Mr. Johnson points out, the
> Germans will simply hide away from their
> starting areas until the bombardment is
> over, then run back to them.
When I first read that I thought that it could not be as simple as that. I did some reading up. Voila! I wonder if many guys here understand how elaborate a properly executed preparatory artillery strike is?
To start with, there is a "firewall tactic", which is the simplest of the ways to preclude the defendants from playing tricks like what you are describing. Okay, this much I knew before.
Then, there may (or may not) be a repeat strike when defenders return to their positions.
Then, to quote a german source "russians were masters of infltration under the guise of a false arty preparation." Ie, it may be a false prep strike altogether. While defenders cool down away from the first trenchline, attackers may already be within 30 m from it.
Then, there were numerous false 'recon by force' attacks before the big one. Go figure which one is the real thing. Germans got it wrong on many occasions.
Then, soviet army put heavy emphasis on all other types of recon. The theory was that it is much better to suppress a fortified MG point (a battery, a trenchline, you name it) during the prep strike, rather than try to react to it during the infantry attack phase.
So, as it turned out, a 'simple' artillery stike was in fact a much more complicated business than I (and, I think, many other people here) realized.
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> they had 20,000 tanks at the beginning of
> the war,for example, and lots of other
> equipment as well.
And yet there was a severe shortage of heavy weapons in late 1941 (how about a newly formed infantry division with just 20 artillery tubes of 45 and 76 mm caliber?). Then, by 1942 there was a severe shortage of hand weapons. Only in late 1942 soviet weapon production kicked in and was able to supply the army with what it needed.Which is "a separate long story" ©.
As I said, most of the regular army with most of the stuff was lost in the first few months of Barbarossa. Moreover, about half of the heavy industry was either lost or had to be relocated to Urals. Can you imagine relocating a tank factory for 3000 km and starting production in the new places within two months? On arrival they'd live in tents and assemble their machinery on open ground.
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> It is long story and out of topic in this forum.
CM2 is supposedly about the Hitler's ill-fated russian adventure. If BTS dont include Voisko Polskoye (sp?) in the game, i don't know why did they include french (or for that matter polish) troops in CM.
Ie, it is not an off-topic. Dare I say, not more off-topic than all the PENG THREADS
So, if there is a long story, why dont you tell it? -
>then I must inform you that Poland was
>attacked by Soviets in September 1939.
Somehow, the medal was called "for liberation", iirc. I guess, there was no official war declaration between USSR and Poland in 1939 (?)
I must also remind you that several divisions of poles participated in the above mentioned "liberation" alongside the soviet troops.
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Yes, guys, I am biased. As I said in the already mentioned Winter War thread, iirc, I have a special passion for statements like the one this thread was started with:
> When you look at the numbers, the Soviets
> kicked the Germans out of Russia because
> they had more bodies to feed the inferno,
> not because of superior doctrine
> or "tactics".
> "voluntary conscription"
Please, insert some kind of separation between voluntary and conscription. iirc, I did it in my posts. Which ever way people from liberated soviet towns ended up in the army, these people were not "civiians" to any larger extent than the guys who died fighting for their town a few days before.
Now, let's say you are an american. And I will tell you that young american guys in late 40-s were "rounded up" and sent to Korea for a nearly certain death. What would your reaction be? "Unbiased"?
> I am reminded about a similiar post about
> Finland and the Winter War you did this in
> as well, even when you were shown to be in
> error
... on some (but not all) points, I just recognised that. Refer you to that thread.
> "yeah and they'd all look like this"
I just thought that this face would suit such "dummy rifle troops", if, God forbid, they find their way into CM2 engine. No guilt trip, anyone, please.
> The conspiracy is to dehumanize the Soviet
> soldier
If you are a smart guy, you'd recognize that urban legends dont need a conspiracy to live for centuries. Heck, most of what we know as "history of the ancient ages" is a bunch of such legends to a large extent. I just dont like when these legends sum up to, as you put it, "dehumanizing the Soviet soldier". It's not right.
So, I know a few facts about the war in Russia, I read memoirs from both sides, I try to recognize "fisherman stories" for what they are (from the recently read stuff Rudel's memoir comes to mind as an excellent example), and yeah, I am biased against certain urban legends.
PS I wonder how big a flame war would it be if I start re-telling soviet memoirs written in the same "fisherman story" genre? And I am not talking about 1990-s memoirs and interviews that you read on history.vif2.ru. Rather, the ones that were published by Political Department of the Soviet Defence Ministry. Starting right from Breznev's "Malaya Zemlya", which I enjoyed re-reading just last week on the Net. Only for point to point comarison sake. I would note in my defence that I abstain from doing that.
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Ahem... I guess so! I would rather tell the guy "get yourself whatever yuo can, and if anyone falls, pick his rifle". Instead of handing him a dummy rifle to "boost his morale".
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For no apparent I just loved "Hamminkeln - We Start Here". "Chance Encounter" is not bad, too.
> the No Rest for the Weary and Any Port in
> A Storm minicampaigns by Patrick Ware
Would anyone bother to post a link?
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Jarmo, I can kinda figure out what "bang!" means in Finnish (I guess, that makes me quite a polyglot
). But what is "laukaus"? :confused: -
> A dummy rifle would certainly not weigh
> 10kg, perhaps 2-3kg would be more likely.
The one I had in mind was made to weigh like a real thing. Ie, about 10 kg.
> If I was to be sent rushing towards an
> enemy and got to choose wheather to carry
> nothing or a dummy rifle, I would choose
> the dummy rifle.
You'd prefer to die tired?
As I said, I've seen a photo of an improvised pike, with that you could at least kill somebody. Anyway, here is my point. The "dummy rifle" was produced in wholesale quantities and used country-wide for training of secondary school pupils and I dont know who else. I have never heard of it being issued to frontline troops as a substitute for the real thing. I very seriously doubt that anyone in his right mind would give it to anyone for morale boosting - as far as russian psychology is concerned, the effect would be distinctly opposite. To me this is plain obvious (I am a russian). Reinforcements were sent to unit formation areas in marching companies, normally without any weapons. Sometimes, they were sent with hand weapons but without ammo.
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My best guess is that they will leave it to scenario designers (to tweak force selection, combat experience and morale) and totally omit that in QB generator. Which is a perfectly correct decision IMHO. But we've been here before, right?
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The poster says "a man of lower race".
> Skipper,
> You claim "myth" to much of these
> occurances, but you dont sound sure
> yourself.
I am sure, however. Dr. Goebbels's outfit created some amazingly long lasting myths.
> in the early days of the Ostfront, the
> USSR did not have the means to properly
> train and equipt troops.
Correct. Summer '41 battle was an epic disaster for RKKA. The regular army, with all its hardware and supplies was nearly wiped out (mostly, taken POWs in operational encirclements, and NOT mowed down by machine guns in human wave attacks). And after that disaster these draftees (ie, those whom you call "untrained civilians") went on to win the war.
See, the big difference between "untrained civilians" as you know them, and soviet population of 1930s was that nearly all of those people went through two years of conscript service before the war. Which was not considerably smaller amount of training than 2 years of professional service in a modern army.
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> And personally I'd rather hold on to
> *something* looking like a weapon (for
> morale)
To a worthless piece of wood that weighs 10 kilos? That is a dummy rifle??? FOR MORALE?????? Please, oh please tell me that you are kidding me.
See, these people who had to do that were not children. And the whole thing was a damn serious life and death affair.
Actually, the worst such cases I know of were "opolchenie" units, in 1941. These were volunteer units formed from people not eligible for a draft. Same idea as German Volksturm. They were armed with whatever was at hand, some squads indeed had one rifle per two men, and they were supposed to build field fortifications and cover unimportant positions. Of course, in the days of armored warfare what was supposed to be a secondary position could (and did) easily become a target of a heavy assault.
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> One way to handle this might be to allow
> the Sovs to pre-set artillery fire for a
> given location any time during hte first
> ten or fifteen turns.
Hmm... looks like a nice idea, by the way! Not only the Sovs, but both sides in fact. That's the way to execute proper pre-planned strikes. However, arty bombardments would normally shift on a signal, not on a particular time. So, perhaps, a "pre-planned arty" could be given three-four zones of fire and switch from one to another on player's order?
From what I understand, the normal use of soviet artillery would be 82mm and 120mm directly "on call" to batallion or company, 76mm regimental guns more often than not in direct fire mode, and all other calibres in counterbattery, preplanned strikes and on call to higher HQs.
Soviet artillery employment was indeed affected early in the war by lack of radios, trained artillery officers and ammo supplies, not to mention lack of good air recon and constant Luftwaffe threat.
However, from what I can say, there is no reason to do anything with smaller caliber modelling. You can make FOs green all you want, but there were many highly trained soviet artillerists, as well as many Lt Jrs from 3 months crash course, where they were taught that sin(x)~x. Big caliber guns, OTOH, were not commonly available on 3 minutes call.
And finally, I recall a discussion about arty where the conclusion was: if you make artillery as powerful as it is in reallife, thet would be a poor gameplay.
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>But iirc, the text elaborated a bit more.
>That the dummy-rifles would make the hords
>*look* all armed.
Myth. Nice museum...
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Looks like a good wau to fish for pbem opponents.
Early war Russian tank crew experience
in Combat Mission Archive #3 (2001)
Posted
QTE
T34 production in 1941 was 3,014 machines
T34 production in 1942 was 12,553 machines
KV1 and KV2 production in 1941 was 1,353 machines
KV1 and KV1S production in 1942 was 2,533 machines
UNQTE
Oops... Boy, was I wrong!
As they say, "you live a century, you learn a century... you die a fool."
By the way, does Zaloga quote production figures of SUs?