Treeburst155

JK and Katyushas! LOL!! I'll need a 21' monitor and the full surround sound home theatre audio setup for that one. I'll be inviting the neighbors over for the "movies". mPisi, An IL-2 tourney, eh? Hmmmmm.....it could be played rather quickly too. Hmmmm...... Treeburst155 out.

Vacations and chores like moving are not a problem as long as they don't keep players out of action more than 2-3 weeks. We WILL run over the deadline, I'm sure. We just don't want to run TOO far beyond it. Treeburst155 out.

Hehe...this tourney won't start for quite awhile, Jarmo. I forgot to mention that sections will be filled with players according to past performance. If you won your section in a previous tourney, you can bet you will be up against stiff competition in the CMBB tourney. This makes it more challenging for the uber players and gives the not-so-uber guys a decent chance to win their sections too. Treeburst155 out.

If you participated in the Wild Bill Tourney, the Nordic Championships, the Nordic Wannabee Tourney, the WineCape I tourney, or the WineCape II tourney, and have a good combat record (completed the tourney) you are guaranteed a slot in the CMBB tournament. You know who you are. Please post here if you want to participate and feel you will have the free time. You will need to play 5-7 PBEM games in 90-120 days. Think carefully about the time committment before posting. I know it's early, but I want to stay ahead of this one as much as possible. When I get an idea of how many people I need to accomodate I can decide on how best to structure the sections and playoffs. I will then be able to determine how many scenarios I need to make arrangements for. The scenarios will all be historical/semi-historical since those types seem to be the most popular. Think about it, and post here if you want in. The tourney will probably begin 30-45 days after CMBB is delivered to customers in Australia and Europe. __________________________________________________ If you are NOT a vet of one of the tourneys listed above, but you would like to play; please do not post here. Email me instead, and we can discuss it. Your acceptance will be subject to slots available, which depends on how the tourney is finally structured. You will also need to provide a phone number to be eligible to participate. I WILL be calling you before I let you in, whether you live in Perth or Pakistan. Treeburst155 out.

Thanks, guys. The scenarios are the key to a fun tourney. WineCape has already made tentative arrangements with one well-known scenario designer for the CMBB tournament. We will stay on top of this so we can be sure we have plenty of scenarios for the tourney AND the playoffs. I have a long list of reliable tourney players now. If everyone on the list wants to play in the CMBB tourney I will need to increase the number of sections or have a second simultaneous CMBB tourney. I haven't decided which way would be best. It might be nice having eight sections in one tourney with two "four section" playoffs, followed by a final showdown between the two top dogs. The main thing is that NOBODY on my list of reliables will be left out. ALL the scenarios would be designed in advance by people who know what they're doing. The scenario I designed for the Wild Bill playoffs wasn't too well liked, so I'm staying out of the design business as much as I can for the sake of the community. Treeburst155 out.

Here you can talk about the scenarios without spoiling them for the general community. Treeburst155 out.

I have started a thread for discussion of the "Nordic Scenarios" in the scenario forum. Feel free to discuss the scenarios at this time. The Nordic Wannabee tournament is now complete. Treeburst155 out.

Uber says, "CM is supposed to be fun, remember?" Good point, Uber General!! I have received information on the following unfinished games: Cooper_fytinghellfish: On turn 5 fytinghellfish_UberGeneral: On turn 15 (of 28) Cooper_UberGeneral: On turn 7 It is clear that none of the games have progressed far enough to even waste time trying to predict a likely outcome. There is also a problem with my plan above for a section one playoff. I must have an even number of players in order for the scoring program to work. Because of this, and the fact I have already spent quite a bit of time and energy on the MIA problem, not to mention I would need to create two scenarios; I think we should wrap this up since it has become more work than fun for me at this point. I will post the final stats for sections 2-4 so those guys will know who won in their sections. With that done, the tourney will be officially completed. Thanks again to all who finished or at least tried to finish; and thanks to Nabla and Wild Bill for the great scenarios. You can expect the Section 2-4 results to be posted here within, say 36 hours. It takes some time to prepare the input file. You may now discuss the scenarios if you want to. I will start a thread in the "scenarios" forum. The Nordic Championship players will be directed to that thread too since they played the same scenarios. Treeburst155 out.

I checked that post over twice for typos, too! Well, here's another one. Let's hope I have this one right. # Gotta_Get_Up - medians Allies 36.5 Axis 63.5 Topi 37 (.492) Juha_A 63 (-.492) Ari 46 (7.088) Heibis 54 (- 7.088) Fate 60 (12.045) vskalex 40 (-14.110) Sesam 41 (3.902) Tuomas 59 (-3.902) Jarmo 10 (-15.610) DrAlimantado 90 (12.637) Dragoon19 24 (-8.610) Ugbash 76 (8.558) Juha_K 36 (-.492) tero 64 (.492) Torbhen 34 (-2.307) S_Fredrikson 66 (2.307) Kingfish 15 (-13.110) Cogust 85 (11.581) Ali 41 (3.902)PasiN 59 (-3.902) Pixie 38 (1.429) Mattias 62 (-1.429) J_Porta 35 (-1.429) Romeoman 65 (1.429) Treeburst155 out.

I agree. We need to hear from The Uber General himself. We need the last files sent to the MIAs. When I get these files I will cease-fire them and see what's up. Apparently, Uber General's TCP/IP arrangements didn't work out since I don't have the results. Good try anyway, Herr Uber General. TCP/IP is above and beyond the call of duty since this is a PBEM tourney. Treeburst155 out.

I have another idea. Since all the MIAs are in section one, we will score the tournament as if Section One never existed. Don't panic, Section One, read on. Sections 2-4 will be scored as normal with the Nordic Championship results used to determine the median. Section One's partial results will not be used at all. This will give 42 games to determine the median. We then need to pick a Section One winner. Section One now officially consists of Redwolf, Mare Ichthys, and Uber General. The other three are hereby relieved of command. The deadline is passed. These three could play a two game round robin with small scenarios I can create rather quickly. This playoff will be scored just like the finals. Since there are only three players and two small scenarios this might be accomplished within a few weeks. Having selected the Section One winner in this manner, we could then move on to the finals. I think we would need new scenarios for these finals as this tourney will be far behind the Nordic Championships. The finalists would probably be stuck with scenarios created by me. If we do all this, 75% of the players are not affected by the MIAs. The remaining 12.5% will have their tourney results thrown out, but they will get to have the two game playoff instead. Whaddaya think? Treeburst155 out.

Here are the scores for, "Economy Of Force" with the corresponding single scenario tourney score inserted. Due to scenario imbalance, you can "win" and still lose. # Economy_Of_Force - medians [ Allied 77.5, Axis 22.5 ] Juha_A 70 (-5.936), Ari 30 (5.936) Topi 81 (3.130), Fate 19 (-3.130) Heibis 83 (4.624), vskalex 17 (-4.624) Tuomas 74 (-3.130), Jarmo 26 (3.130) Sesam 91 (8.987), Dragoon19 (-9.110) DrAlimantado 83 (4.624), Ugbash 17 (-4.624) tero 66 (-5.936), Torbhen 26 (-5.936) Juha_K 77 (-0.492), Kingfish 23 (0.492) S_Fredrikson 47 (-15.860), Cogust 46 (12.7245) PasiN 53 (-14.610), Pixie 47 (12.255) Ali 78 (0.492), J_Porta 22 (-0.492) Mattias 92 (9.390), Romeoman 8 (-9.610) I will post the rest of the scenarios as I get time. Treeburst155 out. [ April 16, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

I'm thinking, Redwolf. I will post again later. I'm really impressed with your research on the CM scoring. Treeburst155 out.

Redwolf, I just read your entire CM scoring article. That's a really fine piece of work there! I agree that some scenario designers don't take size, location, and number of VLs under consideration as much as they should. Treeburst155 out.

You're right, Redwolf. The judges would be making judgment calls based on what they can learn from looking at both sides of the games carefully. There would be no real calculation of a score, just a carefully considered opinion (guess?) as to a likely outcome. If a judge thinks side A has a slightly better situation he might make a call of 55-45 or 60-40. The judges would be able to play out the games themselves to help them decide. IOW, the judges would just be predicting a degree of victory and assigning a score based on that. With ten people doing that in a careful, deliberative manner I think things could work out well. Remember I'll be taking the average of all the judgments for each scenario. No one judge's decision will carry a great deal of weight. In fact, I could throw out any extreme outlier decisions before calculating the average. It's not perfect, but it's not a bad either. Having the judges predict specific future losses and calculating a score would be tough and require intimate knowledge of the CM scoring system. I'm not sure the community actually has that knowledge. We have a good idea how things work, but do we know everything? Dividing casualties inflicted plus VL points obtained by total casualties and total VL points may not be the whole story. Contested VLs are very difficult to predict as you say. I think it will have to be a "feeling" or "impression" that the judges go by. The judges will have to use their best judgment. Treeburst155 out.

Uber-General, The ALLIED password for "Meeting Of Devils" should be in your box if you still need it. What about your game with Sgt. Gold? I don't have result for that one. To All, If I can collect all the latest files of the unfinished games, I could then ceasefire the games and send the files and passwords to all of you, who are NOT in section one, to judge the final scores. I would then take the average of all the judged scores for each game to get the final score. Luckily all the MIAs are in one section. That means the rest of you will have less trouble being impartial since nothing is at stake for you in your section. I think this is an excellent solution!! Thanks guys for helping me work this out. Hmmm....rather than make everybody a judge (unnecessary I think), how about we take the first 10 volunteers? This will give me a nice average for the final score. Section One is ineligible for judging duties. The judges' duties will be simply to assign a final CM score to the unfinished games based on their analysis of the entire situation (turn #, casualties, VLs, unit locations, ammo levels, unit morale, global morale, etc.). What think ye? EDIT: I could even send the judges the files WITHOUT cease-firing the games first. They could then cease-fire themselves to see the current AAR report and/or play the game out PBEM against themselves. I would of course supply both passwords. Treeburst155 out. [ April 15, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

There will be no AAR points for the finals, but I'm sure Wild Bill and Bill Hardenberger would appreciate feedback on their scenarios. As for "Flag Rush Hill", I've already received all the feedback I want. I'm going to do the community a favor and stay away from scenario design. Treeburst155 out.

My apologies to Sgt. Gold. I got confused. It seems to be fytinghellfish and Cooper that are holding things up the most. I understand what you're saying Redwolf. Perhaps it is possible. The first problem is to get the game files from Uber General and Sgt. Gold. What we do with them after that is step two. We also need a status report on the Uber General/Sgt. Gold game. Uber General, Sgt. Gold, are you listening? Treeburst155 out.

Yes, I think we may have a serious problem here. Without ALL players completing their games the scoring system just doesn't work. Maybe we should just call the thing off. At least you all got to play some new scenarios completely blind. Perhaps I can come up with some sort of half way fair way to score the games that have been played, but somebody is likely to get a raw deal. I'm discouraged at this point, and also far too busy to devote lots of time to this problem. Real Life should go back to its normal slow pace for me starting tomorrow. I'll give the scoring some serious thought then. It's clear we need to end this thing so the official deadline for AARs and game results is April 16, 2200 hrs (GMT -6) I can just about guarantee this problem of MIAs will not plague any future tourneys. I have a long list of reliables now. Those of you who finished your games are on that list, and Uber General too. Thanks, guys! Treeburst155 out.

Ahem.....anybody still playing? Treeburst155 out.

Sure, Juha, write some more AARs if you want to. I don't have a place on the web lined up to put all these AARs. There sure is a lot of interesting reading in them. The best I can do is send them to anyone who requests them. Perhaps someone would like to host them. I'll ask around when I get time. I have lots of Wild Bill AARs too. Time is tight for me for a week or so however. That's why I haven't posted the individual scenario stats yet. I'm hoping to get to that on Monday. Treeburst155 out.

Ah well, scenario design just isn't my cup 'o tea, especially for the non-gamey historical type. I'll be sure to make arrangements for scenarios well in advance next time. Players should keep in mind however that never before seen historical scenarios of acceptable size don't grow on trees. Asking a designer to create a scenario or three for us is asking quite a lot from them. Ya know what I mean? Treeburst155 out.

Here are the FINAL results after adding in the AAR credits. The four section winners move on to the finals, a three scenario round robin. Congratulations to the winners, and too you all for finishing the tourney! You are all WineCape tourney alumni in good standing. A big special THANK YOU to those of you who filled in as replacements is in order. Thank you, Nabla, for the scenarios and scoring system; and thanks, Wild Bill, for your two scenario contributions; and of course thanks to our sponsor, WineCape. I will be posting the TOURNEY scores for individual scenarios when time permits. It's interesting to look at. I am unsure exactly when the finals will begin, but it won't be long. I have to secure the scenarios first, and Nabla has to send me the last one before I can do that. If you are one of the finalists please email me so I have a current address for you. Many of mine are very old now. I had lots of "finals" game files bounce back to me in the Wild Bill tourney due to old addresses on record. Thanks! ...and the winners are: SECTION ONE Ari... 7.59 Fate... 4.41 Juha_A... 2.16 Topi... 0.13 Heibis... -5.40 vskalex... -11.24 Congratulations, vskalex!!! SECTION TWO Tuomas... 4.54 Sesam... 4.13 DrAlimantado... 2.05 Jarmo... .80 Ugbash... -2.82 Dragoon19... -6.83 SECTION THREE Cogust... 8.57 tero... 1.49 Juha_K... -1.11 Kingfish... -1.76 S_Fredrikson... -2.06 Torbhen... -3.53 SECTION FOUR Mattias... 5.78 Pixie... 1.79 Ali... 1.09 J_Porta... -1.80 Romeoman... -2.92 PasiN... -4.24 Treeburst155 out. [ April 13, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Here is how things stack up BEFORE figuring in the credit for AARs. The score is your tourney score generated by Nabla's program. SECTION ONE Ari 7.59 Fate 4.41 Juha_A 2.16 Topi 0.13 Heibis -5.75 vskalex -11.24 SECTION TWO Sesam 4.13 Tuomas 2.83 DrAlimantado 2.05 Jarmo -0.23 Ugbash -2.82 Dragoon19 -6.83 SECTION THREE Cogust 8.57 tero -0.22 Kingfish -1.76 Juha_K -2.14 Torbhen -3.53 S_Fredrikson -3.77 SECTION FOUR Mattias 5.09 Pixie 1.79 Ali 1.09 J_Porta -1.80 Romeoman -2.92 PasiN -4.24

The coveted last place honors will soon be revealed. We have passed the AAR deadline. Now I will begin posting the REAL stats. These things take a little time so hang in there. Treeburst155 out.